New chain sharpening tool

[Philbert]

Most wheels very seldom get cleaned to open up the grain.If it is black or dark gray that is not proper maintenance. . . .It is not a big deal to clean the wheel and even reform the profile radius on the wheel with some practice . . .

The need to expose fresh grit was not clear to me at first - I thought that you only needed to dress the wheels for shape. The instructions that come with most chain grinders are notoriously poor.

. . .I suppose they use a similar cutter at the factory for sharpening chains.

I had the opportunity to see this once. They were using abrasive wheels with coolant on very expensive, automated, precision grinders. Grinding the cutters before the chain is assembled gives the manufacturer some options that we don't have as end users.

. . ., almost all 3/8" oregon chain, excluding lo-pro and ripping is ground to 25 degrees at the factory now. I don't know when they changed from 30 degrees. maybe it was a kickback issue. anyway the getting 30 and 25 degree guide is a good idea if you buy the sharpener.

The Timberline has received mostly positive reviews in that thread you referenced - I have not had the opportunity to try it. My bottom line has always been for guys to find something that works for them, so it is a good option to have available.

One of it's limitations is what you note: restricted to a limited number of discrete angles. Cutter angles sometimes make a difference for species of wood, or speed versus durability etc. Not a problem for most guys, but could be for an odd chain or special need. Oregon probably just made a decision on what the best 'all around angle for the average user' was when they changed their 'default' angles. If you grind or file you can pretty much choose whatever angle you want.

Philbert

 

[heyduke]

I wish i could spend an hour with you hands on, I'd have you filing by hand. New chain out of the box, doesn't have a super sharp edge on them. I always filed a new chain before using it.

Take a new chain, look straight down at it, you'll see a shinny edge along the edge of the cutter. If you do see it, its dull, it'll take about one full stroke with a file to remove it, when its gone its sharp.

I have never seen a chain out of the box that didn't have it, or off the roll.

What i think is funny, they tell you to use a 7/32 file, hell it doesn't fit in the cutter. This is because it wasn't sharped with a 7/32 grinder. Take a 3/16 or 5/32 file, it'll fit, i use a 5/32 file, it fits in the factory grind. This is the main reason you can never get it to cut as good as it did out of the box.

i agree, i've had a lot of guys tell me that chain needed to be filed before used. i never have done that but i think it's likely true. the main thing about fresh chain is that it lasts... until you grind it the first time.

grinding wheels don't come in 7/32" as far as i know. the wheel for 3/8" and .404 is 3/16". the carbide burr from timberline is 7/32". lo-pro is 5/32". thos are the only types of chain i use. i keep a roll of each.

 

[heyduke]

The need to expose fresh grit was not clear to me at first - I thought that you only needed to dress the wheels for shape. The instructions that come with most chain grinders are notoriously poor.



I had the opportunity to see this once. They were using abrasive wheels with coolant on very expensive, automated, precision grinders. Grinding the cutters before the chain is assembled gives the manufacturer some options that we don't have as end users.



The Timberline has received mostly positive reviews in that thread you referenced - I have not had the opportunity to try it. My bottom line has always been for guys to find something that works for them, so it is a good option to have available.

One of it's limitations is what you note: restricted to a limited number of discrete angles. Cutter angles sometimes make a difference for species of wood, or speed versus durability etc. Not a problem for most guys, but could be for an odd chain or special need. Oregon probably just made a decision on what the best 'all around angle for the average user' was when they changed their 'default' angles. If you grind or file you can pretty much choose whatever angle you want.

Philbert

i'd give my left nut to visit the oregon factory.

you're right about finding what works for you. that's what took me to timberline. i was hand filing between grinds, keeping depth gauges in spec and still dissatisfied with the quality. i was going to spend $300 on one of those aussie aluminium grinding wheels when i came across the timberline.

regarding ripping chain, i think that if you drilled the bore for the guide bushing dead center then put an angle into the guide bushing, you could flip the guide bushing over when you changed sides, maybe get something close to 10 deg. i think i've ground ripping chain at 5 deg in the past. about special angles, the edge you get with the current model is so superior it might cut better than you'd expect thru a broad range of species and special conditions. oregon recommends that you tilt the vise 10 deg. stihl wants you to move the vise in a flat plane, both to make the edge have a higher aspect ratio at the corner away from the tip. the timberline doesn't do that but it cuts better than new chain with that grind, throws the biggest chips i've seen.

 

[lumberjack48]

i agree, i've had a lot of guys tell me that chain needed to be filed before used. i never have done that but i think it's likely true. the main thing about fresh chain is that it lasts... until you grind it the first time.

grinding wheels don't come in 7/32" as far as i know. the wheel for 3/8" and .404 is 3/16". the carbide burr from timberline is 7/32". lo-pro is 5/32". thos are the only types of chain i use. i keep a roll of each.

I was using that for an example, like on a 3/8 full chisel, recommended file is 7/32 . Theres no way it'll fit in the cutter, when using a 7/32 file, the first time filing you have to reshape the cutter. A 5/32 file fits right in the cutter, this makes the first time filing easy and fun. Just follow the angle and the depth of the file, keep cutter standing straight up and down. I taking hand filing, i logged 36 yrs, counting the last 6 yrs the wife kept the job going. I was out there just about everyday, in the pickup or in our logging bus, never had a chain sharpened on a grinder.

 

[JasonMS660]

We always get ripped in Australia

Has anyone here seen or used this one yet? I know it is not set up for a milling chain. Now if someone out there that could modify the guide set up using a screw and swivel similar to the Grantsberg file guide to make a unit to work on milling chains.:msp_wink:Video | Timberline Chainsaw Sharpener

So I tracked down a dealer for the Timberline Sharpener in Australia, over $340 AUD. Why do we always get ripped down under. No wonder people buy off the net rather than support local distributors.:msp_unsure:

 

[heyduke]

I was using that for an example, like on a 3/8 full chisel, recommended file is 7/32 . Theres no way it'll fit in the cutter, when using a 7/32 file, the first time filing you have to reshape the cutter. A 5/32 file fits right in the cutter, this makes the first time filing easy and fun. Just follow the angle and the depth of the file, keep cutter standing straight up and down. I taking hand filing, i logged 36 yrs, counting the last 6 yrs the wife kept the job going. I was out there just about everyday, in the pickup or in our logging bus, never had a chain sharpened on a grinder.

that's a long time in the woods! what kind of trees were you cutting? you're not going to get any arguments from me on grinders. they pretty much screw up a chain. i use mine if i have severe damage from rock or nail but then i file to remove the heat damaged steel. or i just throw it away and make a new loop.

it makes sense to me that a file with a smaller than specified diameter would work quite well and would cut faster too. maybe i should just carry one size of file, a 5/32". that would simplify my life a little. one thing about switching to the timberline is that i won't be needing to buy a dozen files with every bailey's order.

my rule is: it's better to have a mediocre saw with a sharp chain than a great saw with a mediocre chain.

 

[820wards]

$128 buys a lot of files.

Ditto Bob.

jerry-

 

[Rudolf73]

So I tracked down a dealer for the Timberline Sharpener in Australia, over $340 AUD. Why do we always get ripped down under. No wonder people buy off the net rather than support local distributors.:msp_unsure:

Yeah that sounds about right, I have given up buying chainsaw accessories over here unless its like a 50% off sale or something. I have no idea how they can justify that price increase, I mean I understand we live on an island etc. but its not the 1800's anymore. We have an idea what things really cost overseas...

 

[JasonMS660]

Yeah that sounds about right, I have given up buying chainsaw accessories over here unless its like a 50% off sale or something. I have no idea how they can justify that price increase, I mean I understand we live on an island etc. but its not the 1800's anymore. We have an idea what things really cost overseas...

Yeah your right, it's a flat world now days with the Internet. It a shame as I would prefer to support local distributors and industry but how can you justify excessive mark up. Might well head over and visit some friends in Oregon, have a holiday load up cloths and gear and come back and still be in front!

 

[Philbert]

Why do we always get ripped down under.

Your 'tax' for living on G-d's continent ?

Philbert

 

[Rakaucutter]

Yeah that sounds about right, I have given up buying chainsaw accessories over here unless its like a 50% off sale or something. I have no idea how they can justify that price increase, I mean I understand we live on an island etc. but its not the 1800's anymore. We have an idea what things really cost overseas...

You think it is bad in Aussie, at least your dollar is worth something unlike here in NZ. Also with such a small population some items like the Timberline are hard to come by full stop for love nor money!

I just bought the Timberline Sharpener online from Treestuff. Fantastically fast delivery - about 2 days! They had no issues freighting to New Zealand unlike Timberline themselves who wanted me to go through their soon-to-be-setup agent over here who would double the price and then some. Amazon wont ship lots of items to NZ as well including the Timberline.

Anyway, enough of my woes.... I just tried out the Timberline on my MS460. I usually use a grinder I bought second hand from an engineer who also did chainsaw work including chain sharpening. He had died so his wife was getting rid of his stuff. Always found it was a bit aggressive and hard to just take a small cut to sweeten the edge.

Timberline works amazingly! And from out of packet to on ready to go was about 4 minutes. Easy set up. Using it showed how inconsistent the two sides of my chain were in terms of length of the tooth. This bad boy has completely and accurately set each tooth to exactly the same as its neighbour. I had to cut quite a bit off some teeth as well to get them all the same. Obviously my grinder has become sloppy.

Result: Absolutely razor sharp. Cant wait to try it on some NZ native tomorrow.:msp_biggrin:

 

[Fallguy1960]

Timberline works amazingly! And from out of packet to on ready to go was about 4 minutes. Easy set up. Using it showed how inconsistent the two sides of my chain were in terms of length of the tooth. This bad boy has completely and accurately set each tooth to exactly the same as its neighbour. I had to cut quite a bit off some teeth as well to get them all the same. Obviously my grinder has become sloppy.Result: Absolutely razor sharp. Cant wait to try it on some NZ native tomorrow.:msp_biggrin:[/QUOTE]



Glad to here it can do what was advertised. My biggest issue with hand filing is consistency some days I am a machine the next all thumbs. I received a e-mail from Timberline they are working on a jig that will have a 10 degree angle for milling chains. Now a adjustable raker gauge?

 

[IanB22]

Timberline looks great

I have to say that the timberline looks great, but how does it compare to a portable dremel and a cool running 7/32" stone?

That is the setup I use to sharpen my chain, and only when I get a really wonky tooth do I use a filing gauge I got from Stihl for like 15 bucks. The gauge lets me get the right cutter tooth angle, and then the dremel takes one or two light passes on a slow speed and the tooth is shining like some of my japanese knives I sharpen on water stones. Adjusting the raker's is a bit more difficult, but using a feeler gauge and a carbide wheel I am able to bring them down to .025 without much trouble. They may not be set all exactly, but within .005 I think.

Thoughts on comparing the timberline to a dremel running a stone?
Ian

 

[Philbert]

Thoughts on comparing the timberline to a dremel running a stone?
Ian

Dremel stone is much less expensive, requires a power source, and changes diameter as it wears.

Philbert

 

[heyduke]

I have to say that the timberline looks great, but how does it compare to a portable dremel and a cool running 7/32" stone?

That is the setup I use to sharpen my chain, and only when I get a really wonky tooth do I use a filing gauge I got from Stihl for like 15 bucks. The gauge lets me get the right cutter tooth angle, and then the dremel takes one or two light passes on a slow speed and the tooth is shining like some of my japanese knives I sharpen on water stones. Adjusting the raker's is a bit more difficult, but using a feeler gauge and a carbide wheel I am able to bring them down to .025 without much trouble. They may not be set all exactly, but within .005 I think.

Thoughts on comparing the timberline to a dremel running a stone?
Ian

the really significant difference is accuracy. the timberline produces a glass smooth, razor sharp perfect tooth, 25 30 or 35 degrees. with proper operation all the teeth can be set to within .1mm in length.

View attachment 299078

the side plates, likewise, are smooth and uniform.

View attachment 299079

sharpened correctly your chains can be sharper than out of the box.

View attachment 299080

maybe i'm a klutz, but i've never been able to get a chain sharp enough with a dremel. for one thing the diameter is constantly changing and they leave grit on your chain. but if it works for you stick stick with it.

 

[JasonMS660]

You think it is bad in Aussie, at least your dollar is worth something unlike here in NZ. Also with such a small population some items like the Timberline are hard to come by full stop for love nor money!

I just bought the Timberline Sharpener online from Treestuff. Fantastically fast delivery - about 2 days! They had no issues freighting to New Zealand unlike Timberline themselves who wanted me to go through their soon-to-be-setup agent over here who would double the price and then some. Amazon wont ship lots of items to NZ as well including the Timberline.

Anyway, enough of my woes.... I just tried out the Timberline on my MS460. I usually use a grinder I bought second hand from an engineer who also did chainsaw work including chain sharpening. He had died so his wife was getting rid of his stuff. Always found it was a bit aggressive and hard to just take a small cut to sweeten the edge.



Timberline works amazingly! And from out of packet to on ready to go was about 4 minutes. Easy set up. Using it showed how inconsistent the two sides of my chain were in terms of length of the tooth. This bad boy has completely and accurately set each tooth to exactly the same as its neighbour. I had to cut quite a bit off some teeth as well to get them all the same. Obviously my grinder has become sloppy.

Result: Absolutely razor sharp. Cant wait to try it on some NZ native tomorrow.:msp_biggrin:

Yeah, you guys o get slugged over there, you reckon that they would look at joining the currency. The high AUD as made things cheaper, but this gear is well over ouble what it s in he US! I checked the site, if I'm running a standard Stihl bar 25 and chain, (3/8) what size do I need to get 7/32, 3/16! 5/32 or 13/64? Can anyone help!
My next alternative is the Granberg sharpening jig but it looks complicated and requires constant adjustment with different chains. But you can sharpen ripping chains though. The Timberline looks like its ideal for what I want at the moment for my cross cutting.

 

[BobL]

the really significant difference is accuracy. the timberline produces a glass smooth, razor sharp perfect tooth, 25 30 or 35 degrees. with proper operation all the teeth can be set to within .1mm in length.

the side plates, likewise, are smooth and uniform.

sharpened correctly your chains can be sharper than out of the box..

Accuracy and smoothness of cutters won't help much if your rakers are all over the shop.

The diagonal on the purple rectangle defines the so called raker angle since this is the angle the wood makes with the cutter.
On the middle cutter the angle is 5.4º which is OK, but the one on the right is only 3.2º while the one on the left is 10.2º?
I reckon 6º +/- 0.5º is a minimum on regular chain but I don't sweat if the odd one or two on a 42" bar chain is out by 1º.

For safety chain like the one shown the rakers are effectively wider so I reckon they also need to be lower than usual. I have a couple of loops of that stuff and I use 7.5º with this stuff.

The bases of the cutters are also blued indicating the chain has been overheated at some stage. This happens when the rakers are too high and then the CSM is pushed too hard.

I also reckon those cutters don't have enough hook for the saw to self feed in the cut.

 

[heyduke]

if I'm running a standard Stihl bar 25 and chain, (3/8) what size do I need to get 7/32, 3/16! 5/32 or 13/64? Can anyone help!

7/32" - get two

My next alternative is the Granberg sharpening jig but it looks complicated and requires constant adjustment with different chains. But you can sharpen ripping chains though. The Timberline looks like its ideal for what I want at the moment for my cross cutting.

file jigs that don't let you rotate the file wear out the file before the chain gets sharp.

 

[heyduke]

Accuracy and smoothness of cutters won't help much if your rakers are all over the shop.

The diagonal on the purple rectangle defines the so called raker angle since this is the angle the wood makes with the cutter.
On the middle cutter the angle is 5.4º which is OK, but the one on the right is only 3.2º while the one on the left is 10.2º?
I reckon 6º +/- 0.5º is a minimum on regular chain but I don't sweat if the odd one or two on a 42" bar chain is out by 1º.

For safety chain like the one shown the rakers are effectively wider so I reckon they also need to be lower than usual. I have a couple of loops of that stuff and I use 7.5º with this stuff.

The bases of the cutters are also blued indicating the chain has been overheated at some stage. This happens when the rakers are too high and then the CSM is pushed too hard.

I also reckon those cutters don't have enough hook for the saw to self feed in the cut.

BobL-

Thanks for the feedback. I'm working out a new way to set depth gauges using my 511a. i use the small 1/4" wide wheel the axis set a 60deg the wheel dressed to point an angle at the intersection of the cutter and the top of the link. the idea being that if the tooth rotates a bit, the depth stays constant. the height is set pretty much to .25. i screwed up one side, as you observed, by trying to change the axis of the motor and the chain vise interfered. i've since worked that out. that doesn't reflect on the quality of the teeth, which was the question being answered. also, i included a photo of the chips sitting on the cookie i had just cut with that chain. they speak for the timberline sharpener. the blueing of the chain is due to the oil pump on the old grey top 61. it never has been great since i bought it in the 80's. yes, it overheats, goes thru chains and bars. it's also possible that the depth gauges have been high at some point. you can see the chain is more than half gone even though i almost never use that saw. i was also embarrassed by the lousy low-kickback chain, don't remember how i came by that, but the saw had a much used chain that needed sharpening so it's the one i pulled off the shelf to make the photos. the "bumps" are much lower than the depth gauges and not a factor. don't know what a "CSM" is. regarding the hook and resulting feed, the chips speak volumes. i assure you that it cut aggressively without having to lever the dogs.

your choice of angles interests me. how do you measure the top angle of the depth gauge?

thanks again for the thoughtful critique.

 

[Philbert]

My next alternative is the Granberg sharpening jig but it looks complicated and requires constant adjustment with different chains.

file jigs that don't let you rotate the file wear out the file before the chain gets sharp.

The Granberg (and similar) jigs are very flexible. They work with a wide range of chains and allow almost any cutter angles to be dialed in. They can be a little confusing to set up first, but YouTube videos help. Then you have a lot of flexibility and use common files.

The Timberline is simpler, but less flexible. Not an issue if you are happy with the fixed angles offered.

I rotate the files in my Granberg style jigs regularly. Loosening the little thumb screws does not affect any of the angle settings.

Philbert