New chain vs sharpened.

[Philbert]

Question: how long does it take for an experienced grinderman to grind a chain for a 20” bar?

Real answer is 'it depends'.

Just like with a file, it depends on whether it is a 'touch up' sharpening (a few, light strokes per cutter); whether I am fixing 'rocked' or damaged chains; if I have to balance out a chain where the right cutters look like they came off a different loop than the left cutters; if I have to clean out / reshape the gullets due to neglect; if the depth gauges need adjusting; etc.

In batches, I run a bunch of 3/8 low profile chains, switch wheels; then run a bunch of .325 and 3/8 pitch chains. If it is just kissing the edges I can do a .325 pitch, 20" (84 drive links = 42 cutters; 21 L and 21 R) in under 5 minutes, including set up. A bit faster with a hydraulic clamp grinder.

Add a few more minutes to remove the chain from the saw, and a few more to remount it. But I would also be cleaning out under the clutch cover, cleaning the bar groove, and flipping the bar during that time, which does not get done when filing on the bar.

Rough estimates.

Philbert

 

[huskihl]

I've noticed that after being ground, some cutters get hardened and won't file easily, or at all, due to hogging while grinding or an undressed wheel.

Hypothetically speaking, if a guy never filed his chains, and always ground them on his grinder, is there an advantage to hogging on the teeth to intentionally harden them? Would they keep an edge longer?

 

[Mauser]

Is there an advantage to constantly screwing things up?

I don't think so.

 

[Philbert]

I've noticed that after being ground, some cutters get hardened and won't file easily, or at all, due to hogging while grinding or an undressed wheel. Hypothetically speaking, if a guy never filed his chains, and always ground them on his grinder, is there an advantage to hogging on the teeth to intentionally harden them? Would they keep an edge longer?

Such a target rich provocation @huskihl . Serious or trolling me!?

If a tooth is overheated (something that should not happen if grinding correctly, BTW), the small amount of metal at the edges rapidly cools - what an Oregon representative described to me as an 'air quench'. So, rather than annealing the chain, it actually can harden the edges. So hard that a sharp file will slip across the face like a knife on buttered glass. Disappointing to a hand filer!

This hardened tooth is not normally 'ruined'; the chain can be used, then the thin, hardened portion can usually be ground through at the next sharpening, and filed after that. So don't throw them away.

The blued tooth you sometimes see with an overheated cutter is similar to the blue teeth you see on some carpentry saws, where it is done intentionally with electrical current ('induction hardening'). You will also see it on most guide bars, even new ones, if you sand through a little of the paint near the rails. People assume that this is due to a chain being run without oil, but it is done to harden the rails and reduce wear.

Is it better? 'Hard' can also mean 'brittle'. Especially at the fine edge where the cutting is done. If you are cutting softwood, the hardened edge might hold up longer. In other wood, the edge might chip away and dull quickly. You would have to do a controlled test to be sure. But, since the chain companies are always experimenting, and we do not see any 'single use, hardened chain' in the market (yet), I am guessing that the answer is 'no'. But the guy in your hypothetical case might not notice the difference anyway!

Philbert

 

[huskihl]

Such a target rich provocation @huskihl . Serious or trolling me!?

If a tooth is overheated (something that should not happen if grinding correctly, BTW), the small amount of metal at the edges rapidly cools - what an Oregon engineer described to me as an 'air quench'. So, rather than annealing the chain, it actually can harden the edges. So hard that a sharp file will slip across the face like a knife on buttered glass. Disappointing to a hand filer!

This hardened tooth is not normally 'ruined'; the chain can be used, then the thin, hardened portion can usually be ground through at the next sharpening, and filed after that. So don't throw them away.

The blued tooth you sometimes see with an overheated cutter is similar to the blue teeth you see on some carpentry saws, where it is done intentionally with electrical current ('induction hardening'). You will also see it on most guide bars, even new ones, if you sand through a little of the paint near the rails. People assume that this is due to a chain being run without oil, but it is done to harden the rails and reduce wear.

Is it better? 'Hard' can also mean 'brittle'. Especially at the fine edge where the cutting is done. If you are cutting softwood, the hardened edge might hold up longer. In other wood, the edge might chip away and dull quickly. You would have to do a controlled test to be sure. But, since the chain companies are always experimenting, and we do not see any 'single use, hardened chain' in the market (yet), I am guessing that the answer is 'no'. But the guy in your hypothetical case might not notice the difference anyway!

Philbert

No sir. Honest question

 

[Philbert]

Maybe that is the product we get rich with!

There are also the chains with replaceable edges: http://chain-serts.com/

Philbert

 

[huskihl]

No sir. Honest question

As I mentioned above, if a guy never filed, but only had his chains ground.

I've noticed the blueing happening and backed off. Tried filing said cutter while still in the vise to see if it was too hard to file. Testing limits, I suppose.

I was genuinely curious if there was a possible advantage

 

[Westboastfaller]

I find this with some of my natural cutting conditions.
The gullet, edge and raker tops as well the bottom of the bar rails polish and become extremely hard. I could see that as a yes to your question.
It seems to help bars.


In jobs with heavy snow and cold...
like connecting mulcher lines on a Seismic job with little short hand cuts through muskeg areas where they can't go. You may only burn a couple tanks a day knocking down a bit of brush and small saplings and no snag falling.
You sometimes won't file for a week and it's still pretty good but you take advantage of warmer condtions and a nice fire one random day.
The rakers and cutters are hard to hand file after so long until you break the skin. Like a chain that comes with over hardened rakers/raker

hot cold thing as Philbert is saying. I agree

 

[Backyard Lumberjack]

Do you need to sign a waiver before using that chain?

no doubt, huh! yes... a waiver... and acknowledgment that using it nulls and voids all clauses in my med insurance policy! ~

 

[Backyard Lumberjack]

Pretty sure that I had the same saw, in a 16 inch model. It came equipped with an older version of the Oregon PowerSharp (a.k.a. 'barracuda') chain. Saw made by Poulan? Chain worked OK for a while.

View attachment 689534

Remove the crayon-sized stone from the auto-sharpener, and replace the loop with a standard, 3/8, low profile chain. You will like it. Very handy saw to have.

*** Do not use a loop of the new PowerSharp chain with that stone. They are not compatible.***. New PowerSharp chain uses a curved stone that mints in a bar end cassette.

Philbert

thanks. i bought the saw round about '78 or '79. I had thought about swapping to a dif chain. but that's all I had done about the subject. but u add in the other components to the equation. I appreciate that. will remove the stone. here is a pix of my saw. bit dif than yours. may be more cosmetics than much else. and model #, ie longer bar. the button for the sharpener seems identical... I think the saw is a bit heavy... all those armature windings no doubt. is ur's heavy? is it 2 hp rated? when I get it done and use it will let you know...

my vintage craftsman elec 14"

 

[Philbert]

. . . here is a pix of my saw. bit dif than yours. may be more cosmetics than much else. and model #, ie longer bar. the button for the sharpener seems identical..

Yours looks like a different model (with a 'banana bar'!). I bought the one pictured in 1989?

Nice thing about electric saws, is that you plug them in and they work (or they don't). No fussing. Maybe they need new brushes.

Philbert

 

[Westboastfaller]

I was born in a small town...It was an average childhood with a good upbrinhing. OK FF the tape.

That was BS...sick of protecting those people.

It was still light outside and I was in bed and other kids were still playing "kick the can"

OK Im over it.

I started cutting in 1989 with a logging company.
New 2101 Husky with 42" bar.
They yarded over a creek in a steep draw. Out of the three of us...I was the one to run the saw? Aparently I was good? Maybe it was the neighbour kids running a saw while I was laying in bed listening and I looked out on a light summer night? And thats where I got the confedance to say " yeah yeah..no problem". We packed way the heck down this big draw with the owner and ended in the bottom( 55° ) We get to the bottom Bob stops and says hear,.. as he points down. So of course, I ask were is the creek ....haha...not to Lead on Im greener than Kermit's 'come' or anything. Right? I could hear a faint trickle about 20ft below.

Anyway... things went well, went through five helpers and got the dry sort bucking job for a short while. They sent the buckerman to a heli job to buck in the ocean and they had to get him out of there because he was getting "weird"?
Coming from a New Zealander ...that was kind of weird on its own. Actually no that was his Ozzie partner that said that but still?
Yeah good bosses, 24 pack for the way home...$150 a day cash under the table and $800 every two weeks unemployment. My childhood was picking up. lol

Im trying to get on topic....but I had to tell that story to tell this story...

... to becontinued

 

[BangBang77]

Huh???

 

[holeycow]

 

[Westboastfaller]

Huh???

kick the can is a game

 

[huskihl]

Lmao. With Jamie, there's always a story within a story. Like a sammich

 

[Westboastfaller]

Lmao. With Jamie, there's always a story within a story. Like a sammich

LMAO ...right back at ya. I like someone to make me laugh to.

Sometimes its the ADD\ADHD kicks in
and mix it with the dyslexia and the blue baby syndrome ...and one to many concussions. One more hit on the head and I'll be wrapping my own Christmas presents this year. Im actually not joking.

 

[Philbert]

Keep your stick on the ice . . .

Philbert

 

[Westboastfaller]

People don't want to hear the story? OK
makes writing 'easier'

No F* them! Now It's the long version.

...to be continued

 

[huskihl]

People don't want to hear the story? OK
makes writing 'easier'

No F* them! Now It's the long version.

...to be continued

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Waiting.

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