New chain vs sharpened.

[Westboastfaller]

@jchipps
good to see another experienced Faller around man.

Jump in and help out. lots to write about

If he wants us to wright everything about back cuts...that's a lot.

I will be 'on wedging all week...haha

 

[jakethesnake]

Good pic. I have fallen a lot of different hardwood. Not oak. Maple can be heavy with offset weight.
but Oak runs anywhere from 50- 60lb per cu ft. Doug fir is about 38 lb on coast and 35 in thre nterio. Red cedar about 27 -30lb Western Hemlock about 40lb per cu ft.
I was talking about "gears" in terms of leverage points. Just like a leverage handle. Like putting a pipe over a wrench for leverage. Its no more complicated than that. So if you have a 8ft dia tree and a 2ft undercut 25% on wedged tree when you have just under 6ft of wedding leverage at the back. short handle leverage vs long handle leverage. back of tree to hinge ....the greater distance the easier.
So you are alternating 2-3 ..maybe 4 wedges at the back one inch thich and one or two are all the way in. how much has it moved 1ft back from the hinge? About 1/16 " would be an educated guess.

think of trying to wedge on the side with something like that?
That's what makes it possible to wedge big trees. (increased leverage points.
I loosely referred to it as been like
gears as its very dramatically changing your lift ratio.

Now you have your wedges.
Thinner wedge! 'lower gears'.

In your picture you have the best wedges and not the ones you like.
The Grass valley K&H "red heads" from Medford Oregon.
I carry 3, 10" and one 12" and the same in my back pack that all stay on the feling face at night. The 10's are about between 5& 6/8" (3/4) and the 12 standard about an 1".
The main reason I buy the 12" for is to release my 10's. That and that little extra may get the tree over if its getting easy.
I chase with it and use it in the alternation if needed but its the thin ones that make it soooo much better.
They are lightly tectured and have a very low coeficent of friction.
good through the cold winter and all.

They are great for stacking largely due to their sleekness. They are rounded to hit in the corner to keep them straight when wedding small dial parelell with the hinge. As well stacking if they start to spread.

* @jchipps never heard spreading them on purpose to alternate your wedges in a stack? Props to him. I have banged my share of wedges in that way that want to spread but it never thought of it as a teckneque. It would be really have ro do with a square head. He is definitely right. You have to not only alternate your stacks up alternate your wedges in the stacks. (very important)
Otherwise its a wasted swing. hitting them both at once. I saw a vid of "Bucking Billy" He did a really good job of this heavy backleaner 3' fir. Did the back cut first but he is a horable wedger. Starts out with an 8lb sledge
(I could have been it pretty fast with my 3 1/2 lb 22" handle) On two separate times he does 4 hits in a row on the wedge closest to him?
he had at least 4 rows. Then be stacks all them up. and stays with the sledge? Pretty hard to hit one wedge in a stack with big sledge at waist height. Finally he picks up a 5lb falling axe (wedge melter) then he starts getting somewhere again. Saw him doing a small dia with a 10" k&H from the side. He did not know to hit it on the corner to drive it straight as there is only pressure on the one side of the wedge. He kept straightening it and hitting it flush again....lol

Anyway I always just aim to hit my one wedge in the stack when at chest hight and I can't angle the head. usually I can. I go weight on left foot for top wedge and hit with the width of the axe on the outer edge
and then right step bottom edge.
As mentioned, short wedges may be good for some guys to find their style for small diameter. remember they are generally steep. You can modify the thickness?
As said 1/3 the dia undercut. 25% on a forward leaner if possible. 25% on wedge trees.

Wright somen more later.

Well hell that makes sense enough to me. I like that screwed up wedge as I have a tendency to knick them on smaller trees. As I’m sure you could tell. The red head ones are my best ones yes. That’s why I avoid cutting into them. They’ll get their turn. I never fully thought about the leverage difference between the hinge being in one place or another. I cut around ditches so I don’t get level ground. Lots of times the ditch is full of water. I’m sure it’s nothing like working up in a damn hill but you still don’t get to pick exactly where you’d prefer to be. If I could work around the whole tree most of the time I wouldn’t need to tip them over.

 

[rogue60]

Wtf was the OP"s question again? seems to have got lost in all the bs?
I tried reading this thread but I ended up getting up and for real I walked into a wall! mouth breathing and all!! Lol

 

[Overkill338]

Looks like you might be using too large a wedge (length wise) for the size tree you are cutting.

Going too deep on your face cut will only exasperate that problem since you now have even less room between the hinge area and your bar to use your wedge without it contacting the bar.
Going too deep on your face cut also lets more of the back lean weight settle back right where you're going to attempt to lift, making the lift more difficult, and more prone to the wedge bouncing out instead of sliding in and lifting.
Your face cut should normally only be approximatley 1/3 the total diameter.

As to stacking wedges, and preventing them from kick out:

If you do need to stack, don't stack them directly on top each other. Stagger them, say 45 degrees or so. That way the 'amount' of lift with each hit is more gradual and lets the wedge slide in easier with less chance of bounce back.

Also, some wedges are totally smooth, and some have the little anti-kick out spikes on one side of them. The spike kind will dig into the wood and less prone to kick out.
If stacking that type, the smooth sides go against each other, with the spiked sides against the wood, top and bottom.

If you're routinely wedging various sizes of trees, it's good to have several wedge sizes.
Small - 5"
Medium - 8"
Large - 10 - 12"

Example:
https://www.amazon.com/Gator-Wedge-...&qid=1545884085&sr=8-5&keywords=timber+wedges

If the tree needs a lot of wedging, doesnt it work better to start with a back cut and get the wedges in early? That way the face cut doesnt cause more weight to set back. Is my thinking flawed?

 

[Westboastfaller]

Wbf, thanks for the critique. I learned something that I never thought about - the effect of the depth of the face cut on wedging. Also made me think that I need to learn more about depth of face cuts as I general go deep assuming good wood and little back lean. I wasn't chasing the cuts here.

Ron

My pleasure Ron

Yes the U/C depth looked good in all the others I saw. "forward leaner"
that one was about right depth.
The more base you take out of the front, the greater the pull at the back It will break with more holding wood.
doesn't take much lean with 170ft trees. destroy the wood if 'you' aren't thinking about everything. Can create a higher barber chair potential too in cases.

Ok you were purposely tapering the holding wood. So you were orientated then with back cut to undercut.
In stead of doing that then that's where you do your block face As you guys call it. That's where you have a vertical section at the back right?
We call it a 'Johny hold me tight'
usually make about three saw cerf cuts. or bore the vertical section face.
the other cuts can be both flat cuts (Box cut / channel cut) then put a little west coast swanson/ snipe in the front. they hold on nice. if you think you need more to ensure the fibers peel down then bore through behind the hold wood.
in the case with that leaner you could have predetermined your hold wood
by boring back say 1 1/5" behind your block face. If it starts falling at 4" thich hold wood it will break the back fibers first in order to advance. when it hits your vertical bore then it will peal down like a 4" tounge. instead of shearing off and going with gravity.

lots of species work good without the inside bore.

Sometimes I will start with two parelell vertical bores then box cut the face. if its small then I'll just back cut it and call it a day. if Im slashing stuff and I don't want to chase them down a steep hill and slash them. fast and slash wires good aim isn't to crucial in those at all.


Falling, I still sight line on the first bore. just estimate how far off you are standing from centre before the bore. If its 5ft then sight straight a head 5ft off your mark then flip vertical. or unless you have top sight lines

 

[Trx250r180]

If the tree needs a lot of wedging, doesnt it work better to start with a back cut and get the wedges in early? That way the face cut doesnt cause more weight to set back. Is my thinking flawed?

That works pretty good ,Works good falling into the wind also ,or for going against 180 degrees the lean .
sorry my answer is not 3 pages long like Jamie's .

 

[rwoods]

I have never intentionally tried a block face on a big tree. I use them a lot on little stuff around houses and plants to ease the tree over. Also have never tried the swizzle wheel or whatever you call stacking kerfs under the face. Usually in my low risk environment the tapered hinge provides enough swing. I would love to be turned loose with enough trees to try these other methods.

Anyway I still need to better my sharpenning skills.

Ron

 

[Westboastfaller]

sorry my answer is not 3 pages long like Jamie's .

lol. You just leave us wanting more. funny part is I haven't answered Jake yet, you do realize? Just about finished with the theory part though. How's it going there Brian? long time.

 

[Trx250r180]

Hullo Jamie .

 

[drumbum]

Define 'sharper'.

Not being a smart*ss, but how do you define it? Speed of cut? Size of chips? How it feels when you rub your thumb past it? Measured bevel angles? How long the edges last?

We get into these p*ssing matches about 'sharpness' and may not even be talking about the same thing.

Some guys use appearance. Some use performance criteria. I am always interested in practical, objective, ways to compare, preferably at the bench, where I do most of my sharpening.

I believe you; just curious how you measure or define it.

Maybe I am looking for a unicorn . . .

Philbert

How I define "sharper", is:
Cutter needs to be able to split one average mustache hair thrice length wise in a lateral plane; i.e. no gravity assist, w/ no more than .03 PSI or .08 inch pounds of torque if mounted on bar/fixture. Test must be conducted with conditions roughly equal to; 75 degrees F 60% relative humidity and no more than 101,325 pascals atmospheric pressure @30hg.

Hair must be .5" in length and grasped by fixture .1" from end.

If any bending of hair on first cut, test is recorded as fail
If any bending on second cut has deflection greater than 4%, test is recorded as fail.
These are Antarctican Governmental standards.

Hope this helps.

 

[HarleyT]

How I define "sharper", is:
Cutter needs to be able to split one average mustache hair

Is that a man's?

Or a woman's?

 

[drumbum]

Is that a man's?

Or a woman's?

North American male or eastern European female.



Jeez louise, I wish I would have finished reading the whole thread BEFORE posting.

 

[holeycow]

Jeez Louise,

There is no unit of measure; “moustache hair”.

Even if there was, you haven’t specified whether that is a black one, a brown one, or a blonde one...

 

[HarleyT]

North American male or eastern European female.



Jeez louise, I wish I would have finished reading the whole thread BEFORE posting.

Italian girls!!

 

[jakethesnake]

@jchipps
good to see another experienced Faller around man.

Jump in and help out. lots to write about

If he wants us to wright everything about back cuts...that's a lot.

I will be 'on wedging all week...haha

You’ve failed us all. You’ve left me uninstructed

 

[Westboastfaller]

Right @jakethesnake but I am not my symptoms. I have a different mindset that creates challenges.

-things I need to do in my life.
1) finish what I started^^
2) Don't manage my priorities by interest but by importance and follow them though accordingly.

So i'm back.
(justified as A priority under edjemication

I want to finish out a little more theory.

@jchipps was saying the tree sits back hard on the wedges with a deep undercut. Its a bit of a paradox
when you look at it like distributing more weight to the other side of the see saw?

If say 15% deeper U/C moved 1000 lb to the 'right side of the see saw',, shouldn't it be lighter on the wedges?
He is/was a faller and his experience tells him what he knows.

The two reasons why it sits back hard is firstly the leaning tree is self supporting.
The fibers have the most leverage at the 'top' (tension wood area). think back strap technique or bucking a suspended log end and leaving a small top sec at the top for last. it will hold its own weight better.
Like lifting or holding something closest to the base. leverage is lost dramatically and it becomes heavier.
Because the tree is self holding you want to use it to your advantage on a 'hard wedge'
1) shallow U/C
2) cut and chase
basically cut and wedge, cut and wedge...

Secondly:
Its a hinge joint. what else is a hinge joint? our tools (scissors, branch loppers, side cutters) a mammals jaw. the greatest pressure is closest to the hinge.
So when you make a deep hinge you are esentually putting your hand from the front teeth of the rotweiler deep into it's back teeth. leverage of the hinge joint.

--------------------------------------------------
Proper uses of wedges:

You are cutting your wedges...wedges are spitting out when you stack...?

coming up next...

 

[president]

Right @jakethesnake but I am not my symptoms. I have a different mindset that creates challenges.

-things I need to do in my life.
1) finish what I started^^
2) Don't manage my priorities by interest but by importance and follow them though accordingly.

So i'm back.
(justified as A priority under edjemication

I want to finish out a little more theory.

@jchipps was saying the tree sits back hard on the wedges with a deep undercut. Its a bit of a paradox
when you look at it like distributing more weight to the other side of the see saw?

If say 15% deeper U/C moved 1000 lb to the 'right side of the see saw',, shouldn't it be lighter on the wedges?
He is/was a faller and his experience tells him what he knows.

The two reasons why it sits back hard is firstly the leaning tree is self supporting.
The fibers have the most leverage at the 'top' (tension wood area). think back strap technique or bucking a suspended log end and leaving a small top sec at the top for last. it will hold its own weight better.
Like lifting or holding something closest to the base. leverage is lost dramatically and it becomes heavier.
Because the tree is self holding you want to use it to your advantage on a 'hard wedge'
1) shallow U/C
2) cut and chase
basically cut and wedge, cut and wedge...

Secondly:
Its a hinge joint. what else is a hinge joint? our tools (scissors, branch loppers, side cutters) a mammals jaw. the greatest pressure is closest to the hinge.
So when you make a deep hinge you are esentually putting your hand from the front teeth of the rotweiler deep into it's back teeth. leverage of the hinge joint.

--------------------------------------------------
Proper uses of wedges:

You are cutting your wedges...wedges are spitting out when you stack...?

coming up next...

good analogy!,even I get it

 

[Trx250r180]

What about the axe ?

 

[Westboastfaller]

Jake,

Its time to step your game up and learn all the aspects of wedging with a round head wedge

Yes its time to get some scratches on those nice K&H wedges.

As I said previously, they are round so you can wedge parallel with the holding wood by controlling it from the inside outer corner (in a perfect world) you have to consistently it the same spot.
If a small tree sat back on your saw and you only had 3/8" at the back of the tree to wedge from then a 10 or 12 k&h in good shape will get you out. I've gotten out with 1/4" room with new wedges. Had to adjust the wedge a few times as It keept digging into the chain. A new 12" k&h has got me out when a new 10 would not many times in that position. Just creates the right lift preasure at the right time. So your wedge only has to be in the tree a half inch to get full hight so you shouldwould cut them ifon small diameter.
If that doesn'kick the tree over then you can drive another one on the inside of it.
Start practising with them and you will never want to use those other ones again. You can get the k&h round head in an 8" too but kind of defeats the purpose as they are thicker and will be harder to drive especially from one corner.
The 10" are the ones you want to stack up as they are only about 5° each and the thicker 8" are about 8° I do believe.
Use a bit of compound between them (10" ) if you have to. Sawdust or gritty dirt.
you can take another saw cerf out of the stump on one stack so the wedges will slide in further to start. keep in mind the wedges are steeper than the trunk angle so they only grab at the highest spot on the wedge. right at the outside of the tree Still having trouble?

You can bore in on a slight angle its like taking a few degrees off stack thickness.

or drive some singles in the sides to reduce the presure . (careful not to pop holding wood)

 

[Westboastfaller]

What about the axe ?

Red and Yellow. See in the avitar?