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new garage heating ideas
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nathon918
Addicted to ArboristSite
also they're no more complicated or prone to problems than a modine heater, or any hydronic heating system... piping system, hot water, zone pumps/valves...that's about it, id have Cryo-Tek or some kind of antifreeze in the system incase of a problem so you don't run the risk of freezing the system... infloor would be my first choice...you could probably even run it off a wood stove if you really wanted to
Have you heard of many problems with the pex tubes breaking.
Kingfisher30
ArboristSite Lurker
Tonight for example, the building started at 39 deg and was 76 3 hours later. I've never really kept track of consumption. I only heat on weekends and have no shortage of wood. I heat the space with shoulder season woods such as poplar and cottonwood and mix in some black cherry from time to time.
nathon918
Addicted to ArboristSite
that has more to do with what Sawyer Rob said..if its a proper quality install there should be no problems, but that starts at the site work for the foundation/floor, as well as using the proper products (PEX needs to be oxygen barrier), but if your site work is bad then the rest will only be as good as that ...
If I recall its 2" pink insulation board.
I'm in and out of the garage/ shop all the time. Regardless of the heat type I'd have it on 24/7. It's nice to have the things in there to be warm and not just the air.
UpOnTheHill
ArboristSite Guru
It all depends on how you are going to use the space? Do you want it heated quickly, slowly? Is it ok for the temps to drop below freezing in there? Do you expect to pull vehicles inside during the winter to melt the snow and ice off of them? Do you want to wash vehicles in there?
In floor radiant is hard to beat in a shop environment if you plan to keep it above freezing and don't expect to take the temperature from low to comfortable within an hour or two. The heat on your feet and on the equipment you're working on, coming from the floor, is absolutely fantastic. You can heat in floor radiant pex with a boiler, a domestic hot water heater, just about anything you can think of. Even an instantaneous water heater if it is sized properly for the load. You can get fancy with in floor radiant too and extend it out into a concrete apron or a sidewalk. No more shoveling snow. Just make sure to get the proper glycol mix % so it doesn't freeze.
If you let your shop cool down to whatever the outside conditions during the week like I do, and only use it really on the weekends, you need a large and quick source of heat. I use a medium sized wood stove with a blower. A gas or electric furnace or boiler would work, again if sized properly. Ceiling hung unit heaters will also work and can be gas fired or electric. With this method, the concrete floor will be cold. It takes all day, with my wood stove blazing, to get my slab to warm up at all. Even though it might be 65 degrees air temperature.
I'm a building automation guy and I work on all types of htg/clg systems, theory, design, etc. My ideal setup, if I had unlimited resources, would be this: Wood fired gasification boiler in my shop. One zone for in-floor radiant heat in the shop. One large zone feeding the house with underground , insulated pex. I would build a manifold in the house with zones for domestic hot water heating and space heating with a hot water coil in the furnace. I would also add radiant in-floor heating to the bathrooms and kitchen and put that on its own zone with a mixing valve.
P.S. - don't forget one or two well thought out floor drains in your shop for washing vehicles in the winter. It's fantastic and you'll thank me later. I don't have a drain, I just sweep the water outside but I have to open an overhead door (shop was here when I bought the place).
In floor radiant is hard to beat in a shop environment if you plan to keep it above freezing and don't expect to take the temperature from low to comfortable within an hour or two. The heat on your feet and on the equipment you're working on, coming from the floor, is absolutely fantastic. You can heat in floor radiant pex with a boiler, a domestic hot water heater, just about anything you can think of. Even an instantaneous water heater if it is sized properly for the load. You can get fancy with in floor radiant too and extend it out into a concrete apron or a sidewalk. No more shoveling snow. Just make sure to get the proper glycol mix % so it doesn't freeze.
If you let your shop cool down to whatever the outside conditions during the week like I do, and only use it really on the weekends, you need a large and quick source of heat. I use a medium sized wood stove with a blower. A gas or electric furnace or boiler would work, again if sized properly. Ceiling hung unit heaters will also work and can be gas fired or electric. With this method, the concrete floor will be cold. It takes all day, with my wood stove blazing, to get my slab to warm up at all. Even though it might be 65 degrees air temperature.
I'm a building automation guy and I work on all types of htg/clg systems, theory, design, etc. My ideal setup, if I had unlimited resources, would be this: Wood fired gasification boiler in my shop. One zone for in-floor radiant heat in the shop. One large zone feeding the house with underground , insulated pex. I would build a manifold in the house with zones for domestic hot water heating and space heating with a hot water coil in the furnace. I would also add radiant in-floor heating to the bathrooms and kitchen and put that on its own zone with a mixing valve.
P.S. - don't forget one or two well thought out floor drains in your shop for washing vehicles in the winter. It's fantastic and you'll thank me later. I don't have a drain, I just sweep the water outside but I have to open an overhead door (shop was here when I bought the place).
Thanks for the input, you have got me thinking about radiant again. Do you think i could put the pex in and wait a year or two to put the boiler and stuff in, just to kinda spread stuff out a little.
firebrick43
Life is all about big saws
To eliminate chances of breaking the in floor piping the most important is proper subgrade prep and drainage.
Ideally the subgrade will be 3 times the thickness of the floor of clean compacted crushed stone. Of concrete that has not cracked or settled, stuff even 50 years old I have torn out it's been prepped like this. Make sure you have good perimeter drainage as well. You are getting the water away from the slab and if the water/water holding soils is t there then it can't freeze and heave. 2" blue/pink extruded polystyrene insulation is a good start. More is better. Putting wings extending out 3 or for feet down at a 45 degree angle help with frost getting under the edges. Put a plastic barrier in there as well
Remember to that concrete guys are typically the dumbest of the dumb. Ankle brackets are typically jewelry! Do not let the get concrete guys have less than 5" or 6" slump delivered. If you let them they will get the soupiest slop because it's easier to work with but has much less strength.
Also do at least some rebar on bricks with wire on top. It's impossible for some to lift wire while standing on it. I have torn out lots of concrete, nearly all of it that didn't have some rebar had the wire on the bottom in many places.
Place your pex in well defined zones. Two separate circuits overlap a zone. That way if one fails you don't lose all heAt in that zone. Also place expansion joints between zones to crack along instead of where ever it chooses to.
Lastly, curing. Concrete truely never cures but it takes aprox 7 days to reach 80% cure. 21 days to reach 90%. You can lose up to half of concretes strength but letting concrete air cure. Place a soaker hose on the pad, some straw and cover it with plastic. Turn on the hose once or twice day depending on how hot. Do this at least for 7 days but 3 weeks to a month is even better. You will end up with a much longer lasting product.
Ideally the subgrade will be 3 times the thickness of the floor of clean compacted crushed stone. Of concrete that has not cracked or settled, stuff even 50 years old I have torn out it's been prepped like this. Make sure you have good perimeter drainage as well. You are getting the water away from the slab and if the water/water holding soils is t there then it can't freeze and heave. 2" blue/pink extruded polystyrene insulation is a good start. More is better. Putting wings extending out 3 or for feet down at a 45 degree angle help with frost getting under the edges. Put a plastic barrier in there as well
Remember to that concrete guys are typically the dumbest of the dumb. Ankle brackets are typically jewelry! Do not let the get concrete guys have less than 5" or 6" slump delivered. If you let them they will get the soupiest slop because it's easier to work with but has much less strength.
Also do at least some rebar on bricks with wire on top. It's impossible for some to lift wire while standing on it. I have torn out lots of concrete, nearly all of it that didn't have some rebar had the wire on the bottom in many places.
Place your pex in well defined zones. Two separate circuits overlap a zone. That way if one fails you don't lose all heAt in that zone. Also place expansion joints between zones to crack along instead of where ever it chooses to.
Lastly, curing. Concrete truely never cures but it takes aprox 7 days to reach 80% cure. 21 days to reach 90%. You can lose up to half of concretes strength but letting concrete air cure. Place a soaker hose on the pad, some straw and cover it with plastic. Turn on the hose once or twice day depending on how hot. Do this at least for 7 days but 3 weeks to a month is even better. You will end up with a much longer lasting product.
UpOnTheHill
ArboristSite Guru
Listen to this guy about your concrete if you want it to stay flat and nice for a long time. these tips will also greatly reduce your chance of damaging the pex in the future. If it was me, and I planned on staying at this house for many years, I would do it once and do it right. You can absolutely put the pex in now and wait to install all the accessories and heat source later. Just plug the ends so nothing gets in them and label them if you do multiple loops.
All good points, although I'd eliminate the rebar in the slab completely and replace it with a fairly coarse fiber add-mixture (lots of it). I wouldn't mess with the fine stuff, (which helps with initial shrinkage, some types of spalling, and only small cracks), but go heavier, which will help with the overall strength. Like firebrick43 states, if you do go with rebar or wire mesh, make sure it's off the ground, or it will be 100% useless.
I've read extensively on the fiber vs. rebar debate, and decided to go with a medium-thickness fiber (and LOTS of it) for the slab on my 24 x 24.
Sawyer Rob
Addicted to ArboristSite
I just hate that fiber sticking out of the surface of the concrete...
I much prefer rebar and wire in mine, that rebar really adds strength!
SR
I much prefer rebar and wire in mine, that rebar really adds strength!
SR
ChoppyChoppy
Tree Freak
Yup, I don't keep fuel in my garage or really any flamable liquids aside from small amounts that I regularly use like Kroil, brake cleaner, my parts washer.
All the other stuff goes in the shed out back.
I do alot of welding in the garage.
Here at the shop we have a flame locker for that type of stuff. It sits outside near the shop door.
All the other stuff goes in the shed out back.
I do alot of welding in the garage.
Here at the shop we have a flame locker for that type of stuff. It sits outside near the shop door.
fixit1960
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I have a 45x 54 pole barn 13 ft side walls that I lined with the Reflectix double bubble aluminum sided insulation. I have a Heatmor OWB outside the building that supplies to an exchanger mounted on end wall about 12 ft up. The 2000 sq ft house 80 ft away is also fed off of the Heatmor with underground insulated Kitec tubing. The main reason I went with what I did is the recovery time on the in floor and I at times, jack up heavy trucks in my shop and didn't want the risk of cracking and breaking the in ground heating loops. Floor is 5 " thick with wire. I wanted a nice smooth finish so I did not go with the ground fiberglass. I poured and finished the floor myself. Yes it has and in floor drain and catch sump.
Working well for 15 years now. I use the shop for my side business, car and truck repair. My insurance agent was the largest determining factor in putting in the OWB. As long as the heat source was outside the building, insurance is almost the same rate as a storage shed. Spilled gas, diesel or whatever is not a problem. I can bring the temp up about 15 degress every hour when it is 0 outside. I keep it at 38 to 40 when I'm at my day job. Work in it at nite and weekends. Note I consume large amounts of wood when it is below 0 or the wind is blowing
. But the alternative in propane or electric would not be financially feasible for me.
I am thinking about enclosing the area above the rafters now that I'm getting older and cutting , hauling wood isn't as much fun. One of the reasons I hadn't thought about this in the past was because I have a peak ridge light panel in mine. During the day I can go in the shop and grab something with out having to turn lights on and during the day it really adds a lot of light. Now I'm thinking the savings in wood by enclosing the space above the lower trusses would save enough wood to offset the cost of power to turn on the lights.
Any way I'm sure your needs are different just sharing my experience. Good luck with whatever you choose..
Working well for 15 years now. I use the shop for my side business, car and truck repair. My insurance agent was the largest determining factor in putting in the OWB. As long as the heat source was outside the building, insurance is almost the same rate as a storage shed. Spilled gas, diesel or whatever is not a problem. I can bring the temp up about 15 degress every hour when it is 0 outside. I keep it at 38 to 40 when I'm at my day job. Work in it at nite and weekends. Note I consume large amounts of wood when it is below 0 or the wind is blowing
. But the alternative in propane or electric would not be financially feasible for me. I am thinking about enclosing the area above the rafters now that I'm getting older and cutting , hauling wood isn't as much fun. One of the reasons I hadn't thought about this in the past was because I have a peak ridge light panel in mine. During the day I can go in the shop and grab something with out having to turn lights on and during the day it really adds a lot of light. Now I'm thinking the savings in wood by enclosing the space above the lower trusses would save enough wood to offset the cost of power to turn on the lights.
Any way I'm sure your needs are different just sharing my experience. Good luck with whatever you choose..
NSMaple1
Addicted to ArboristSite
How is your house heated?
Might be an opportunity to re-do your heating system to do both.
If you want this garage to be insurable, I would ask your insurance agent about a wood fire in a garage before you decide. Even if you can keep gas cans elsewhere. Just having a garage door on it will lead to a big flat no sometimes - but sometimes it doesn't matter as long as the stove/whatever is raised up a certain distance off the floor.
Might be an opportunity to re-do your heating system to do both.
If you want this garage to be insurable, I would ask your insurance agent about a wood fire in a garage before you decide. Even if you can keep gas cans elsewhere. Just having a garage door on it will lead to a big flat no sometimes - but sometimes it doesn't matter as long as the stove/whatever is raised up a certain distance off the floor.
If you are going to put the foam under your concrete for in floor heat, make sure you use extruded 2" foam rated at 250. This is for ground contact, the 150 rated is not. It doesn't matter what color the foam is, blue, pink. green or yellow, it is the extrusion rating. This page, http://radiantdesigninstitute.com/ is a good place to glean some information and the reasoning behind it. It is a little lengthy. I had the OWB hooked up in the last house to an air exchanger in the furnace and the same for the garage, and I am going to put radiant in floor heat in the next one. I may not be able to get it all done before next winter(funds), but at least the pex will be in the floors! I am going to shift gears to a different brand of boiler this time and add some thermal storage tanks as well.
Everyone uses there garages differently. I will use mine for a couple of hours in the evening and on Saturdays. I Have the ceiling hung natural gas blower unit heater. I keep it set at just above freezing all the time. The heater is way bigger than I need but it will raise the temp in my 32 x 36 garage from 34 degrees to 70 degrees in 15 minuets. However everything in there is still cold and I do waller around on a cold floor. It is quick heat if you are out there for a little while in the evening.
Cpeder
ArboristSite Member
Go in floor I've built many house and garages installed all myself. Just figure out where mounted items go such as compressor car lift and what not. Sucks when u drill through a tube and have to shut that loop of. Glycol in the system keeps it from freezing. When I build mine I'm using a coal stoker heat. One loop or feed will be to a hydronic coil/fan to get temps up over 55 when I'm working in he garage.
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