new saw for wildland fires

[flame fighter]

Looking to purchase a new saw whos primary use will be in wildland firefighting. I know there are several fellow firefighters on this sight so I'm hoping I can get a little guidance. Currently using a husky 55, but am determined the next wil be a Stihl as I like the controls better and they seem to be more prevalent in the fire service. I would like to go to a substantially larger more powerful saw than the current one as I have found it to be wanting on occasion. I am looking at either the 460 or the 660. Weight is not as lage of a consideration as for some as I am attached to an engine crew about 80% of the time. Either wa y I go the saw will be getting the standard mods (muffler, ports cleaned up and opened). Another thought is to get a 440and send it to washington hotsaws to have the stage 2 mods done, how would this compare to either of the others? My intent for bar length is to keep it normaly equiped with a 22-25" bar and keep a spare bar in the longest length available for the model for those times when it is safer to use the extra length. I just haven't paid much attention to the saws most others are using for this type of work. Arround here they havent been real keen on dropping trees as a preventive measure but hey are starting to use the idea more, and we get a mix of whatever people have on hand.

 

[Stumper]

Somehow I envisioned saws being supplied to wildland firefighting crews.Since it must be Stihl I would suggest either a 440 or a 460. The 660 is too heavy for what you will be doing. The 460 is more powerful than the 440 and weighs very close to the same....but it uses more fuel. Since you are usually truck based I would suggest the 460. If I were doing a lot of firefighting on foot I would opt for the slightly lighter and more fuel economical 440 (well actually I might choose a husky or Dolmar...but we are talking Stihl). Firefighting is exhausting work and slowing yourself and your saw down with a long bar doesn't make much sense. Because I am over 6'1" tall I would choose a 24" bar. If I were shorter I would probably opt for a 20 ". Some areas have large trees that demand a longer cutting attachment but from what I have seen of Wyoming forests (admittedly far from all) I don't see the need for a long bar-a 24 in will let you fell 4 foot diameter trees if need be but will be much safer (and faster)when you are mowing down 8 inch stuff trying to get a firebreak compared to an awkward and tip heavy 36".

 

[flame fighter]

The dept has 4 saws that are fine in most of the pine we get into. MS250 w/16" and Husky 55 /20". However along many of the creek bottoms and in several people's yards we get into some 40"-48" cottonwoods. WHile the existing saws will get the job done they are far from ideal. I would prefer to be able to cut them from one side when necessary as the last 3 footer I cut down I had to make my second set of cuts while in a hose stream to keep from getting burned as the tree was burning all on the one side. Also the larger would allow me to bring the larger stuff down more quickly which can be a big bennifit in this job. The chief is not particularly interested in buying a larger saw that only 2 or 3 of us are capable of running so I am looking to get one personally.

 

[smokechase II]

wildland fire saw

Having a 460 or 660 or equivalent in the rig is nice, but most crews/engines go with a 440 for regular use.
Smokechaser on this site is a collector of the larger saws, old mac super pro 125's etc. He is a wildland ff from Central Oregon and despite his personal passion for big saws He'll tell you the same thing. Go with a 440 over a 460 for fireline.
Yes, I understand that a 440 is best characterized as a heavy duty thinning saw. A 460 has a falling saw. But, wildland firefighters are primarily cutters of smaller diameter stuff with occasional larger tree felling.
Now, if you're a pro cutter reading this. Your work on the fireline is different and you usually need the larger power heads. Usually.
That gas hog thing with the larger saws is a bigger pain than most people realize if they haven't run them.
Wyoming and the other states you make it to have big enough trees that a focus for you might be length of bar. A 440 will handle a 32" bar usually just fine if you go with full skip. Not true in hardwoods or some other specific species out west etc. But usually not a problem.
I'm going to make a guess that at least half the folks I know would suggest 440/32" bar/full wrap handlebar/full skip chisel chain.
All the best.
(In my FS vehicle I have a 044 and a 064. I get asked periodically about why don't you go for newer stuff. Those things still run sweet. For some reason I feel that the 064 was just a slightly better saw. I bought a 044 for myself at home from Madsen's and I treat it like it is a King.)

 

[jp hallman]

Smoke, you failed to mention the agency jumpers in our local forest(Deschutes) all use Husqvarna 372xp's...and it looks like they're replacing them with 575xp's.

 

[clearance]

Like Stumper, I say 460, nice saw, powerfull. The one I used had a 28" Cannon bar, skip chain, wrap handle.

 

[tek9tim]

440, full-wrap, 32", full-chisel, full-skip

My crew (and most others I've seen) run primiarly 44's, with only the occaisional 46. 2 of the 3 (Forest Service) engine crews out of Leavenworth here run 1 46 and 1 44. (the third just runs 44's) The only time you are going to notice a power difference between the two is if you've got most or all of a 32" bar buried. A lot of crews will run 28" bars on their saws, but we run 32", and I hands down prefer it. I can "shoot from the hip" so much more easily, keeping my whole back straight and my shoulders square while cutting stuff on the ground. Then again, this is just what works for me, day in, day out, all summer long.

 

[smokechaser]

Yep,
The 044 is the one I'd go with. Dont bother with a 046. If you want lots of power go to the 066. The fuel consumption to power ratio on a 046 is JUNK. Your better off with the bigger 066 if you need to pull a bar longer than 32"
This is just my experience with the 046 though.
Any way if you wanna go lite, I am also a fan of the 036, for smaller crew members. My wife likes hers.
My saw in the truck is a 064 with a 36" bar. Hasnt been a tree yet I havent been able to take down.
JP is right about the local jumpers. They go both ways with stihl and the huskys. They even have a couple of 288's and 394's they carry for big pickles.

 

[klickitatsacket]

Seeings how you mentioned us I will add a couple of things here. #1 If I was looking at the power of the 066, I would go to the MS460 with a big bore and stage II mods. More power than the 066 and substantially lighter. The Ms440 is a good saw for the weight. However if it is in the truck most of the time that may not be a big concideration. Now if you need a light saw with power; The 036 with a stage II conversion is one of the best saws for power to weight ratio. These little saws really come to life. I also like the MS361 after they have been modified. For me though right now my favorite is the ms460 with big bore and stage II. I also do not pack it too far from my truck or fuel.

 

[Patrick62]

Fuel consumption??

I have a 460, and I know of two more up here. Nobody has complained about it using excessive fuel. They are work horses. Plenty of power. I have never run a 440, it jsut made sense that if the weight is practically the same then I go with the larger saw. I agree that it would pull a 28-32 bar easily.

-pat

 

[flame fighter]

Dean the set up you suggest tis one I have been giving some definate thought if I can find a suitable donor saw to start with for a good price. Would it be worth doing the big bore and stage 2 on a used saw. I'm assuming it would be recomended to replace the rod and crank bearings at the time this was done. Also how does the 440 with the big bore compare to a stock 460?

 

[smokechaser]

Pat,
Don't get me wrong I'm not intending to discount the 046. I am speaking sheerly of the fact that most of us (wildland firefighters) have to be able to carry our fuel with us for sometimes some very long distances. Every bit of weight can count. Carrying extra gas for a gas hog is only if there is a consistently high number of really big trees that need to come down. Now if were talking working close to a road or truck that can be a easy source of fuel, Hey I'll take HP of fuel economy anytime.
Another factor for alot of us feds is we cant just take a work saw down to one of the local saw shop and have mods done. I know of crews that have got away with it but purchase folks that oversee our spending can ask alot of questions. Plus mods cost money and current budgets don't allow for alot of extra spending. If I gotta decide between a hot rod and another fire fighter, I'm gonna pick up another hand and make the best of the saw Ive got.

Ps read stumpers post a little closer.


flame fighter,
If you are a structure guy, where are you that there is such a need for a extra macho saw. Ive cut cottons 60" dbh with a 044 and never missed a beat. But if you can get your cheif to buy a tricked saw, go for it. You will be happy with the power some folks can get out of one of these saws.

 

[clearance]

Smoke, do you guys use jetpacks or is it the gas tied to the oil and over your shoulder?

 

[smokechaser]

usually carry sig bottles in our line gear. spread it out over a couple of folks and you can go for a solid day or two. Two gas to one oil and away we go. For most close to the truck stuff (thinning or single hazard tree removal), we use dolmars. OSHA like us to use the dolmars as they are "approved".

 

[klickitatsacket]

Dean the set up you suggest tis one I have been giving some definate thought if I can find a suitable donor saw to start with for a good price. Would it be worth doing the big bore and stage 2 on a used saw. I'm assuming it would be recomended to replace the rod and crank bearings at the time this was done. Also how does the 440 with the big bore compare to a stock 460?

IF you can find a donor, the low end can be rebuilt for $180 parts and labor provided the crank is in good condition. the kits by them selves run about $120. Yes the 440 with a big bore kit is the same displacement as the 046 but you also get the metal fly wheel of the 044. I like this because you end up with a wider torque band but it is a little slower on the felt throttle responce.

 

[jp hallman]

Pat,
Don't get me wrong I'm not intending to discount the 046. I am speaking sheerly of the fact that most of us (wildland firefighters) have to be able to carry our fuel with us for sometimes some very long distances. Every bit of weight can count. Carrying extra gas for a gas hog is only if there is a consistently high number of really big trees that need to come down.

Smoke, I'm a casual hire FALC. I always thought that was the falling boss's job! To carry the dolmar that is! I carried a couple sig bottles on the B&B and got chewed out for it. Was told somebody might mistake them for drinking water. So, back at the truck wrote "Mixed Fuel" on one and "Bar Oil" on the other with a Sharpie. Agency man was happy then. The lettering lasted about a day. I don't believe I could work for the "gumment".

 

[smokechaser]

I would hope most folks would smell what theyre about to drink it but some of us agency folks dont know when to quit. Lettering the bottle sounds like a bit much.
So what division were you on jp?? There was some pretty good trees for droping on a fire that huge.

 

[flame fighter]

Smokechaser, my department gets into a bit of everything, we are the largest and best equiped department for at least 60-70 miles in any direction. we have a primary response area of about 1000 square miles give or take, and depending on the incident we are an automatic response to each of the surrounding towns 30+ miles each way. We do structure, wildland, medical assist, high angle, dive rescue and our primary is crash rescue. We currently have 32 members, 1 heavy crash and 1 light crash, 4 1250 gpm pumpers, 1 2000 gal tender, 1 4500 gal tender, 3 250gal quick atacks, and 2 1000 gal duce & halfs. last year we ran 320 calls and we are already at 90+ this year. Where 'm looking for the larger saw is just for the extra bar length it would be capable of. About half of the trees I bring down are cottonwod or elm in the 24-30 inch range. Often these are already burning so I really don't care to take any more time bringing them down than I need to. I went to my s-212 class with a 55 rancher / 20" which at about 8500 feet was lacking the lungs to work well. I ended up borrowing a 262 /20" for most of the class. I did have the opportunity to use a 372 /24" for a short time in the class and was very pleased with the power. I would be completely happ with anything from there up as long as the weight doesn't get to high. I'm figuring a cut off for weight in the neighborhood of 18#-20#

 

[jp hallman]

Don't remember the exact division's. Guess I could look in the old paperwork if I had to. Was called out on initial attack the day the smokes were spotted. Spent a couple days staging on the side of Hwy20. From there spent the next 12 days jumping around. Came back from R&R, Spent the next few days at Camp Pioneer. Moved to the Idanha ICP. That's when it got fun. We packed into the wilderness each day and fell some Pumkin's! Some close to seven feet on the butt. Shame they'll just lay there and rot. Might add...I was running 372xp's then with a 32" bar on each. I don't believe there's a tree on the planet you can't fall with a 32" bar.

 

[Freakingstang]

I don't believe there's a tree on the planet you can't fall with a 32" bar.

That stament is gonna get eaten up, although 99% of the time, that is the case.