New set of unistrut rails

[betterbuilt]

My first question still stands - how wide was the hardwood you tried to cut?

Unless you are talking osage orange or similar, in terms of hardness, few of your hardwoods are that different to softwoods and so log width (rather than wood hardness) will determine chip clearance and overall cutting speed.

I didn't actually measure it but I would say it was in the 40 inch range. I'm not sure of how white oak and Osage orange compare, but I don't think it really matters like you said it's the width that matters and they were close. I was was just trying to figure out why I couldn't cut pine without resorting to rocking the saw.

It could be you rakers are a touch too aggressive for softwoods, but OK in hardwoods. The depth the cutter penetrates is dependent on the raker depth and profile, and the hardness of the wood. In softwoods a pointy raker can push its way into the wood further than the hardwood and creates a higher cutting angle (not cutter angle - See FOP sticky in the CS forum for definition of "cutting angle") than in a hardwood. Generally this does not matter because a softwood is softer and the saw just tears the wood out of the bigger bite - but if your rakers are borderline too deep, and there are too many of them this could make a lot of difference.

Rakers should never be a fixed depth, they should be a certain proportion of the gullet width - this is called progressive raker setting.

Measure your gullet width and then use a raker depth that is a fixed proportion of that. Most new chain is set for a gullet / raker ratio of 10/1, eg gullet is 0.25" so raker should be 1/10th of that or 0.025".

There is nothing magic about 10/1, some find that 7/1 works, others find 12/1 works. If you read that FOP sticky you will see I don't even bother about the ratio but work in degrees of cutting angle, 10:1 is about a 6º cutting angle. I use a 6 to 7º ratio as measured with a Digital Angle finder.

You can achieve some of this using a progressive raker guide like a Carlton FileOplate (FOP). FOPs set a cutting angle of around 45º which is a touch too shallow for my liking.

I'm gonna check the sticky out. I'm not sure I'm totally under standing what your saying.

I checked the sticky out and I'm starting to realize I have a lot to learn about sharpening a chain. I'm gonna see if I can put all that info into action. Thanks BobL

 

[BobL]

I didn't actually measure it but I would say it was in the 40 inch range. I'm not sure of how white oak and Osage orange compare, but I don't think it really matters like you said it's the width that matters and they were close. I was was just trying to figure out why I couldn't cut pine without resorting to rocking the saw.

OK, if the Oak was also the same width then it's most likely a raker depth issue.

I'm gonna check the sticky out. I'm not sure I'm totally under standing what your saying.

I checked the sticky out and I'm starting to realize I have a lot to learn about sharpening a chain. I'm gonna see if I can put all that info into action. Thanks BobL

No worries.

How are you measuring the raker depth? If you want a bit more of a diagnosis of your chain, post a flat side on closeup of a cutter or two.

 

[betterbuilt]

How are you measuring the raker depth? If you want a bit more of a diagnosis of your chain, post a flat side on closeup of a cutter or two.

I had been measuring my rakers with a feeler gauge and a straight edge sitting on the tip of the cutters. I see now I need digital angle finder. I'll take a picture later tonite.

I tried a newer ripping chain on the spruce and it still wasn't feeding very well. I have a ripping chain I set the rakers to .035. I'm not sure of the angle of cut but I didn't want to go to far. I'll probably try it tomorrow.

 

[BobL]

I had been measuring my rakers with a feeler gauge and a straight edge sitting on the tip of the cutters. I see now I need digital angle finder. I'll take a picture later tonite.

I tried a newer ripping chain on the spruce and it still wasn't feeding very well. I have a ripping chain I set the rakers to .035. I'm not sure of the angle of cut but I didn't want to go to far. I'll probably try it tomorrow.

You can still do it with feeler gauges, but then you need a set of vernier calipers to measure the gullet width. A DAF gets around both. I don't measure my cutting angles every time I file the rakers, especially in the field, I generally give teh rakers a swipe or two every 3-4 touch ups and then reset them with a DAF when I remove the chain to flip the bar.

If the chain is near new and you are using 0.040" rakers then that is equivalent to a cutting angle of 9º - in softwood on a 45" cut you would need an 090 to do that.

Remind me what cc saw you are running?

 

[betterbuilt]

You can still do it with feeler gauges, but then you need a set of vernier calipers to measure the gullet width. A DAF gets around both. I don't measure my cutting angles every time I file the rakers, especially in the field, I generally give teh rakers a swipe or two every 3-4 touch ups and then reset them with a DAF when I remove the chain to flip the bar.

If the chain is near new and you are using 0.040" rakers then that is equivalent to a cutting angle of 9º - in softwood on a 45" cut you would need an 090 to do that.

Remind me what cc saw you are running?

You need to make a glossary for all these anagrams and tech words. I just spent 10 mins trying to figure out what a DAF is. I know now. Digital Angle FInder (DAF) I'll have add that to my list of tools to buy. Do you have a picture of what a gullet is?

Well just so you remember I was running .040 on a chain I modified to be like granbergs Chain. I'm running a 066. I rarely find it to be under powered. I was cutting a 36 inch Walnut today and It was throwing nice long chips. It actually looked like I was noodling.

 

[betterbuilt]

How are you measuring the raker depth? If you want a bit more of a diagnosis of your chain, post a flat side on closeup of a cutter or two.

I finally finished that log. It's kinda funny because I did three other logs in the same time it took me to slab that one. I messed around with about eight different chains and never got it to feed its self. So here's my pictures BobL.

This isn't what I normally use its what I thought you guy were saying to do. The rakers look like they are at different heights in the one picture I assure you I've never spent so much time sharpening a chain as I have this week.
I normally use ripping chain with the rakers at .025
This one is a 3/8 .063 ripping chain at 10 degrees with the rakers at factory so less than .025 .

This one is a 3/8 .063 ripping chain at 10 degrees with the rakers at about .034

They both cut when leaned into, but stopped cutting when I backed off. Any help would be great.

I'm sure I read about it once or twice but how did you say you cleaned your chain? I thought You said soapy water.

 

[mtngun]

Judging by the scrapes and scratches on the bottom of your Alaskan, you could benefit from some UHMW on the Alaskan, to reduce friction. Without it, you'll have to push on the mill no matter how perfect the chain cuts.

Dunno what to tell you about the rakers. I'm still looking for the perfect raker setting method myself.

When you hear BobL talking about his mill self-feeding, and see that picture of him sitting in a chair while the mill operates itself, remember that his homemade CSM weighs about 70 pounds. Put that heavy sucker on a slope, with UHMW on the rails, and gravity will do a lot of the work. Not so much on a 30 pound Granberg CSM, especially with aluminum rails grinding on unistrut.

 

[betterbuilt]

Judging by the scrapes and scratches on the bottom of your Alaskan, you could benefit from some UHMW on the Alaskan, to reduce friction. Without it, you'll have to push on the mill no matter how perfect the chain cuts.

Dunno what to tell you about the rakers. I'm still looking for the perfect raker setting method myself.

When you hear BobL talking about his mill self-feeding, and see that picture of him sitting in a chair while the mill operates itself, remember that his homemade CSM weighs about 70 pounds. Put that heavy sucker on a slope, with UHMW on the rails, and gravity will do a lot of the work. Not so much on a 30 pound Granberg CSM, especially with aluminum rails grinding on unistrut.

The scratches are only since I started to Use those rails. I can't say I notice those scratches til you pointed them out. I'm gonna wax the the rails for now. I'll keep my eyes open for UHMW but I can't say I would know where to get it. Mine sure seems like it weights 50 lbs.

Sorry to hear about your saw problems.

 

[mtngun]

I'll keep my eyes open for UHMW but I can't say I would know where to get it.

Sorry to hear about your saw problems.

I got mine at McMaster-Carr, item #7701T411.

Looks like my saws will survive.

 

[betterbuilt]

I got mine at McMaster-Carr, item #7701T411.

Looks like my saws will survive.

You made that almost to easy. Thanks

 

[BobL]

Firstly your raker depths are creating a cutting angle of ~6 º which are fine for most wood except I would file the rakers a little more pointed with less flat top. Too much flat top will effectively reduce your cutting angle.

Your cutters seem to have at least two related problems. The first one is the file you are using is too small and not being filed at the correct height which results in the cutter top plate not being filed at all leaving a lot of cutting edge glint. If you push the saw hard enough these cutters will still cut in your soft type woods but you are overloading the saw unnecessarily.

In the picture it is clear the file is too small and set way to low in the cutters The rhs cutter top plate edge looks quite mangled.

In this one you can clearly see the glint and the file size again is too small.

Now look at a correctly filed cutter and note how the file protrudes above the cutter and the side of the file. Only when it protrudes slightly above the cutter will a file create a glint free cutting edge.

The amount of protrusion above the cutter can vary from 0 to 20% and determines the hook.
If you need help holding a file at the correct height consider using an oregon file guide like in this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWwLEuY5Iao

I hope this helps.
Cheers

 

[betterbuilt]

To be quite honest those chains haven't been hand filed yet. I used the grinder to modify them and to try the way Will Malloff says he grinds them in his book.

The hand filing thing aside I thought you would say I had too much under cut on the teeth. I'm still trying to figure out where the saw dust gets stuck. I guess that was my main reason for asking for help. I've seen the guys that run hot saws actually undermine the tooth to make more room for chips. I'm not gonna try that.

I was running may saw in short bursts to see just where the dust was getting caught. It seemed to me That it just tucked into the tooth. I have regular access to pine cut offs from and it would be nice to fly through them.

What do you use to clean your chains with?

Thanks for the help so far. and any help to follow.

 

[BobL]

To be quite honest those chains haven't been hand filed yet. I used the grinder to modify them and to try the way Will Malloff says he grinds them in his book.

The hand filing thing aside I thought you would say I had too much under cut on the teeth. I'm still trying to figure out where the saw dust gets stuck. I guess that was my main reason for asking for help. I've seen the guys that run hot saws actually undermine the tooth to make more room for chips. I'm not gonna try that.

Yep you do have way too much undercut but more significantly you have no cutter edge. This means the cutter tears rather than cuts fibres, torn fibres are going get jammed more easily in the gullet. Stuff like pine will as you say jam more under the teeth and reduce the cutting
It doesn't matter whether you are hand filing or grinding the grinder or file must make a fresh surface on the cutter top plate edge and remove all glint.

To self feed the chain does not need a lot of hook. Look at how little how hook I use on this cutter.

What do you use to clean your chains with?[/QUOTE]
I soak them in water with a dollop of Simple Green for about an hour. Then I use a scrubbing brush to scrub off any remaining resin. after rinsing off the detergent I squirt some CRC on the chain and hang it to dry.

 

[betterbuilt]

I guess I'm reading into it too far. I had been hand filing and wasn't having any problems in hard wood. The spruce just made me think there must be a better way to file this chain to make it cut pine. It's kinda funny because since I started checking with a caliper and using the feeler gauge I've been cutting faster in hardwood but slower in that spruce.

Anyhow thanks for the help. I'll definitely have to get a DAF ( Digital Angle Finder) and see how that works.

 

[BobL]

I guess I'm reading into it too far. I had been hand filing and wasn't having any problems in hard wood. The spruce just made me think there must be a better way to file this chain to make it cut pine. It's kinda funny because since I started checking with a caliper and using the feeler gauge I've been cutting faster in hardwood but slower in that spruce.

Anyhow thanks for the help. I'll definitely have to get a DAF ( Digital Angle Finder) and see how that works.

You can always start with a File-o-plate, it's a lot cheaper and will get the cutters back to reasonable shape.

 

[betterbuilt]

You can always start with a File-o-plate, it's a lot cheaper and will get the cutters back to reasonable shape.

I'll keep my eyes open for one. I always try to get thing from the local guys first before I go to the computer. I have a husqvarna one but I'm not sure its the same.

 

[BobL]

I'll keep my eyes open for one. I always try to get thing from the local guys first before I go to the computer. I have a husqvarna one but I'm not sure its the same.

The Husky one will do the same thing.

 

[betterbuilt]

The Husky one will do the same thing.

I'll add it to my kit. Thanks bobL

 

[BobL]

The object you marked X is actually a short piece of unistrut. used a piece of steel to make a washer so I could slide the strut in and out. The angle sounds better, I'll have work on that. How did you cut the slot in the in your angle?

I just reread this and realised I never answered your question.

The sides of the 3/8" wide slot (L) were ripped using a thin kerf cutting wheel in a small wood working table saw and the I drilled a 3/8" hole at the end of the slot. Then I welded a short steel strap (S) across the open end of the slot.

 

[betterbuilt]

I started to make those pieces of Angle and I never finished them. I tried to cut the kerf with a thin angle grinder blade, but it caught and ripped the wheel right off the grinder. I figured I'd come back to it when I could do it a little safer.