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[ZinTrees]

Zintrees, what type/size sawmill do you have.

48" alaskan with an MS881

some of the larger slabs, rented a small kubota to load them, had to break each log down into small pieces so it would lift them, one inch and a half slab is right at capacity for my boxer
trailer sides are 24" for reference
was 4 trailer loads, 14K dump trailer would barely tip them out, the kubota could only lift one end, so we had to lift the end, back the trailer under, then use the kubota to shove the pieces into the trailer, many lift attempts, had to keep taking slabs off to get the pieces light enough
the tractor was rated to lift around 3K, had a box on the rear for weight and I kept picking the back end up off the ground with these pieces

 

[ZinTrees]

That ****ing dead oak tree, are we still hearing about it.....

I feel bad for you having to read all this

 

[dbl612]

Estimate simulator! Lmfao, we miss you MDS you can't leave.

Pdqdl laid into zin like his red headed step child! Talk about emotional damage!

Much respect for Pdqdl!

zin is now a self proclaimed expert on tree operations with a crane. too funny.

 

[pdqdl]

Estimate simulator! Lmfao, we miss you MDS you can't leave.

Pdqdl laid into zin like his red headed step child! Talk about emotional damage!

Much respect for Pdqdl!

I hope that you noticed that I was nice throughout the conversation. And I really do wish for him to return with answers to my questions. I think the kid's got ambition, he just needs to learn a bit more and improve his manners.

As far as that goes, it probably helps understanding a bit to study on a simulator. Not as much help as actually running one, but if that's all you got, it's better than guessing. Crashing a simulator has got to be cheaper than crashing a real one.

 

[pdqdl]

the real reason that crane tipped: nobody on the crew knew what they were doing
ANYBODY on ANY job can shut the job down for ANY reason, unsafe cribbing? shut down till the issue is fixed
outriggers on soft ground? shut down till larger pads and cribbing are in place
about to make a cut that looks too heavy? shut down till a decision has been made, there are reasons the green log weight charts exist, you can get a fairly accurate idea what your piece will weigh before it comes off, due to the possibility of dynamic loading you shouldnt be trying to get to 90%, hell 50% is high enough to be dangerous


if the crane operator cannot see the climber, and the piece being cut, then use comms, or send the crane home, unsafe to do otherwise
crane operator has no clue what is going on at the hook because there is a house in the way? comms, or send the crane home, can always piece it out from a lift or climbing


always cheaper to refuse a job than it is to drop a crane boom on a house
there, I said it, if you cant do it safely walk away, no reason not to, even with insurance the odds of losing money are way higher by risking it

Nice rant. Too bad you never identified the clues in the picture that revealed what the likely cause of tipping was.

There is still some stuff to remark on, but you've missed it. C'mon! LOOK at the picture closely for details that reveal what happened. If you can read this text, you can see it in my picture.

Nice use of the "blame everything" logic shotgun, though. Hard to miss with that weapon.

 

[ValleyForge]

48" alaskan with an MS881
View attachment 1008600
some of the larger slabs, rented a small kubota to load them, had to break each log down into small pieces so it would lift them, one inch and a half slab is right at capacity for my boxer
trailer sides are 24" for reference
was 4 trailer loads, 14K dump trailer would barely tip them out, the kubota could only lift one end, so we had to lift the end, back the trailer under, then use the kubota to shove the pieces into the trailer, many lift attempts, had to keep taking slabs off to get the pieces light enough
the tractor was rated to lift around 3K, had a box on the rear for weight and I kept picking the back end up off the ground with these pieces
View attachment 1008601

Who’s the hillbilly? Lol

brotherhood of the really long beard!!!

 

[tree MDS]

Nice rant. Too bad you never identified the clues in the picture that revealed what the likely cause of tipping was.

There is still some stuff to remark on, but you've missed it. C'mon! LOOK at the picture closely for details that reveal what happened. If you can read this text, you can see it in my picture.

Nice use of the "blame everything" logic shotgun, though. Hard to miss with that weapon.

Looks like the rear outrigger broke off? Even if “short-jacked”, or whatever the fancy crane lingo is, I don’t think that’s normal.

 

[pdqdl]

Well now! I figured you would see that.

It looks broken to me, that's one of the clues I've been bugging Zin to see. I think that broken outrigger states clearly that the boom was extended far to the driver's side rear, at it's very limit for horizontal reach.

Since the outrigger in the rear wasn't fully extended to the side, it predisposed the truck to tipping front end up-and-over onto the side. When the crane's weight was mostly perched on that left-rear outrigger, the whole assembly was twisted off the rear of the truck, because it wasn't built to carry that much weight in the off-perpendicular angle the force was being applied. When that happened, the rear of the crane settled somewhat violently and the crane stopped tipping onto it's side when the fully extended boom crashed into the ground. Otherwise, it would have crushed the side of the house when it tipped fully onto it's side.

 

[Glenn50]

Pdqdl, I probably shouldn't post on this thread as I am not a crane guy or a skilled arborist. But curiosity is getting the best of me. It appears the front 2 outriggers will "fit between the two houses: one on the driveway, and the other seems like it is not to the other house line. They seem fully extended. Unless there is some hidden obstruction, like a porch, the rear outriggers should have been at the same extension as the front. If not, are there load sensors to tell the operator of a load limit, taking into account short rear outriggers if they were short? I don't see how the accident was allowed to happen. Also, it would seem the rear outriggers would twist off the truck, instead of an actual break of the outrigger itself, when the truck was "dancing". The boom not being parallel with the outriggers, causing the front of the truck to stand like an aggressive bear. I am assuming the outriggers can take an equal horizontal load as a vertical load.

 

[pdqdl]

Look a bit closer. The crane was set with the driver-side front outrigger in front of the house, with the passenger side outrigger to the side of the neighboring house. Notice the location of the wood cribbing & pad on the ground where the passenger-side outrigger used to be, as well as where the center outrigger was set in the driveway. It shows clearly where the truck used to be. Given that the driver-side front outrigger is still perched very nicely on it's cribbing, I think we can safely say that the whole crane did not shift sideways prior to tipping over.

Presuming that the front and rear outriggers are of equal size and distance to the side of the truck, the rear outrigger could not have been fully extended except by chopping a hole in the house.

The operators almost certainly moved the crane closer to the crushed house for setting up the lift, so as to have enough reach to get there with the lift hook. Unfortunately, they lost a lot of capacity by moving that outrigger in.

As to the strength of the outriggers and breaking them? No. They cannot stand the same force horizontally as they can vertically. They aren't built to withstand tipping all the weight onto the left-rear of the truck and then pushing sideways on the outrigger pad. I've sheared all the bolts on my crane's outrigger (an old knuckleboom) twice, and it was never done by "proper operation". Broke one when an idiot rolled it, another time when a truck backed onto the lot and hit the outrigger while it was not on the ground. Both occasions sheared all the bolts, 'cause they weren't built to hold a force in that direction.

Did that cover your questions?

 

[pdqdl]

Pdqdl, I probably shouldn't post on this thread as I am not a crane guy or a skilled arborist. But curiosity is getting the best of me. ...

This is a forum that is dedicated to professional tree workers, but I consider almost all topics fair game. There are obviously some participants in this thread that could use the explanation, so I am happy to have answered.

Shucks. If everybody knew everything, we'd have nothing to talk about.

 

[tree MDS]

Shucks. If everybody knew everything, we'd have nothing to talk about.

Now you’re making me miss vet. Lol.

 

[tree MDS]

48" alaskan with an MS881
View attachment 1008600
some of the larger slabs, rented a small kubota to load them, had to break each log down into small pieces so it would lift them, one inch and a half slab is right at capacity for my boxer
trailer sides are 24" for reference
was 4 trailer loads, 14K dump trailer would barely tip them out, the kubota could only lift one end, so we had to lift the end, back the trailer under, then use the kubota to shove the pieces into the trailer, many lift attempts, had to keep taking slabs off to get the pieces light enough
the tractor was rated to lift around 3K, had a box on the rear for weight and I kept picking the back end up off the ground with these pieces
View attachment 1008601

I swear, I’ve met Pa Zin’s doppelgänger (or vice versa). It’s so amazing, like the same guy!!

Of course, like I said, in 32 years I think I’ve met most of these people before. They sure do keep coming though. Is like a zombie tree apocalypse. Lol

 

[dbl612]

Now you’re making me miss vet. Lol.

just stop talking like that

 

[ZinTrees]

uprooted sycamore over lots of fencing today
done in 4 hours, hung it out of the poplar it sat in, cut the butt away in 2ft logs, once it was standing straight up (hanging from the poplar) I lowered the stem and cut rounds off the bottom
it also snapped off another smaller poplar, so we had to support that from the tall poplar behind it, and lowered that whole thing as one piece as well
blocks, rings, natural crotch, maasdam, had a total of 5 ropes in the air at one time, climbing and bucket work

 

[Glenn50]

Pdqdl, Yes, thank you. Except that I still don't understand why the crane didn't warn the operator of a dangerous situation. Heck, my new to me spider talks to me before an uh oh moment is about to happen. BTW, my curiosity simulator warned me not to post this, but I ignored it.......
Thanks again for your reply. You are right - I should have been more observant.

 

[pdqdl]

LMI, outrigger scales, load chart for every possible configuration
they simply cut too big, and as soon as it dropped it pulled the crane over
they SHOULD have used a green log weight chart, and cut well under capacity and that crane wouldnt have tipped
and before PD says anything, I do not care that the rear outrigger wasnt at full span and overloaded, thats what the load chart is for
the operator should have said something, again with the "anyone can shut any job down for any reason at any time" operator should have shut down the job

Kindly show me a load chart that displays the proper scale for a partially extended outrigger. Especially valuable if you can ID the crane in question and find the right chart. Otherwise, you need to button up a bit.

Again, you are displaying your ignorance. As mentioned before, outrigger scales are not present on every crane. Ooops. There went that crazed notion. And even if there was, the outrigger scale doesn't tell you anything until the cut log hits the cable.

You don't even know if it was catching a cut log that caused the problem. A simple operator error is often the cause of a turned over truck. There you are, operating at close to the limit, and you pull the wrong lever or go the wrong direction.... EGAD! and over you go.

I don't guess you thought of that, did you?

 

[ZinTrees]

You don't even know if it was catching a cut log that caused the problem.

could have been a limb for all I know, what I do know is the crane was working a tree job, so the odds are almost 100% it was a dynamic pick

A simple operator error is often the cause of a turned over truck. There you are, operating at close to the limit, and you pull the wrong lever or go the wrong direction.... EGAD! and over you go.

should not go full-tilt on any lever from the get go, you have over 100ft of stick with many thousands of pounds on it, easy on easy off, easy to avoid the issue
again operator error

I don't guess you thought of that, did you?

ive thought of every situation you have mentioned so far
if you are as smart as you say, then lets see your crane operator cert, otherwise you are talking out your ass like you accuse me of

Kindly show me a load chart that displays the proper scale for a partially extended outrigger

many do, and they also say "if its not in the chart dont use it" so, if the chart does not say a capacity for partial outriggers, then you cannot use them
again, shut the job down
like I said a while back, cheaper to shut the job down than it is to **** up stuff

 

[ZinTrees]

here is the video of the incident
see that, outriggers in the air from an overload, also see how nothing is moving till the rear outrigger snaps? the crane was in the air well before the video starts, notice how the pick is NOT moving, almost like it wasnt even cut yet, hmmm, too much pre tension? see that boom deflection, wayyyy too much pre tension, see how easy it would have been for the operator to get out and look into the back yard to see the pick?
as far as im concerned I am done with this topic, it is not benefiting anyone or anything other than your ego @pdqdl

 

[ZinTrees]

the outrigger scale doesn't tell you anything until the cut log hits the cable.

You don't even know if it was catching a cut log that caused the problem.

well damn, way to twist things into your favor