Not too much longer in the private sector, for me.

[treevet]

Another perspective is establish a clientele of upper middle to upper class customers that are devoted and loyal and better yet advocates. They do not feel economy fluctuations so much as others if at all.

No hacks are going to even get to bid on most of the properties I work on and many of them have been clients for decades and we have a personal relationship and they are not about to even get a bid. Treat them like gold and they will never go away. You may lose them to silver tongued big box company salesmen but often you get them back almost crying at your door.

This is of course assuming you are a top of the food chain arborist that they can take pride in having on their property and have confidence in anything you decide or suggest. You have to stay on your toes to exist at that level.

Like Sam Kinneson used to say about the starving people in India......"Why don't they go where the food is!"

 

[mckeetree]

Another perspective is establish a clientele of upper middle to upper class customers that are devoted and loyal and better yet advocates. They do not feel economy fluctuations so much as others if at all.

No hacks are going to even get to bid on most of the properties I work on and many of them have been clients for decades and we have a personal relationship and they are not about to even get a bid. Treat them like gold and they will never go away. You may lose them to silver tongued big box company salesmen but often you get them back almost crying at your door.

This is of course assuming you are a top of the food chain arborist that they can take pride in having on their property and have confidence in anything you decide or suggest. You have to stay on your toes to exist at that level.

Like Sam Kinneson used to say about the starving people in India......"Why don't they go where the food is!"

Good. Since it sounds like you are immune to them I am going to send all these Mexicans to Ohio.

 

[treevet]

We got plenty of em around here. Just take a visit to the courtroom sometime and you won't be able to move given the space taken by them and their translators.

 

[Bearcreek]

Sounds good, doesn't work. Only tighter controls, high licensing fees, etc., will get the hacks to die down, if not out.

What happened to the free market system? If a person is willing to do a job for less money and people are willing to hire them then so be it. I, for one, do not want the government and more regulations involved in any more aspects of my life than it already is. People should be able to make their own decisions about who does work for them without Uncle Sam having to lead them by the hand and telling them who is a good arborist and who isn't. I don't think that illegal's should be allowed to get away with it, but somebody that will work for firewood, thats life. I don't like those people bidding against me and driving prices down but thats how it is in a free country. We could do it like China and have the government control all private business. I don't want that to happen and I don't want the US to move that way.

 

[gr8scott72]

What happened to the free market system? If a person is willing to do a job for less money and people are willing to hire them then so be it. I, for one, do not want the government and more regulations involved in any more aspects of my life than it already is. People should be able to make their own decisions about who does work for them without Uncle Sam having to lead them by the hand and telling them who is a good arborist and who isn't. I don't think that illegal's should be allowed to get away with it, but somebody that will work for firewood, thats life. I don't like those people bidding against me and driving prices down but thats how it is in a free country. We could do it like China and have the government control all private business. I don't want that to happen and I don't want the US to move that way.

Free market is one thing but illegals (that bypass all existing systems) and hacks (that are down right dangerous in how they work) are another.

I guess ultimately it's the customer's choice but all too many times they choose the cheapest no matter what the actual cost to them is.

 

[Bearcreek]

Free market is one thing but illegals (that bypass all existing systems) and hacks (that are down right dangerous in how they work) are another.

I guess ultimately it's the customer's choice but all too many times they choose the cheapest no matter what the actual cost to them is.

True and I agree for the most part, at least about the illegals. That should not be allowed. But that issue aside, who should be the ones to say if a person is a good arborist or not? Uncle Sam? If people do not have the freedom to make the wrong decision then they are on the way to not having the freedom to make any decisions.

 

[treevet]

I agree with most of what was said re competition. Let the buyer beware. But who protects the trees. Sure the ho should be allowed to screw up but who protects the trees, they cannot protect themselves. This is what initiated the ASPCA.

If anyone touches trees they should know how they work. This should be mandated.

 

[mckeetree]

True and I agree for the most part, at least about the illegals. That should not be allowed. But that issue aside, who should be the ones to say if a person is a good arborist or not? Uncle Sam? If people do not have the freedom to make the wrong decision then they are on the way to not having the freedom to make any decisions.

Bearcreek, you are missing the whole boat here. Electricians, plumbers, irrigation installers and a host of other professions have to pass a test and maintain ins. and their license. We are not asking for a lot of gov. control, just a little more level playing field that's all. Man if immigration would do their job that would be a big step in the right direction. We are the generation that is going to witness the USA give it all away. Everything we and the generations before us have worked for. There is 15 to 20 million people here illegally that are just fine with third world conditions not counting Americans that are fine with those conditions. The situation feeds off itself. Just take a look at neighborhoods and it tells it's own story. A lot of times it doesn't drive someone out of business but it drives their standard of living down to nothing to try and stay in business. They start to drop professional affiliations, insurance coverage and lower the quality of their employees just to try and make it.

 

[Bearcreek]

Bearcreek, you are missing the whole boat here. Electricians, plumbers, irrigation installers and a host of other professions have to pass a test and maintain ins. and their license. We are not asking for a lot of gov. control, just a little more level playing field that's all. Man if immigration would do their job that would be a big step in the right direction. We are the generation that is going to witness the USA give it all away. Everything we and the generations before us have worked for. There is 15 to 20 million people here illegally that are just fine with third world conditions not counting Americans that are fine with those conditions. The situation feeds off itself. Just take a look at neighborhoods and it tells it's own story. A lot of times it doesn't drive someone out of business but it drives their standard of living down to nothing to try and stay in business. They start to drop professional affiliations, insurance coverage and lower the quality of their employees just to try and make it.

I understand where you're coming from man, I really do. I've been to Mexico a bunch of times as well as west Africa and I don't want that to be the US. The thing is, one of the things that characterizes places like that is a government that has a huge amount of control over people's decisions. I realize there is a lot more to it than just that but it really kind of scares me when I hear statements like treevet made above. It should be "mandated" that you "know how they work" if you're going to "touch" them because "they cannot protect themselves"? C'mon. It makes me nervous to have precedents set that encourage more government control. The US government is one of the most inefficient organizations in the country. Thats why we're 11.4 trillion dollars in debt and why it costs us taxpayers $12 for Uncle Sam to buy a ####ing ballpoint pen for a secretary to use. I hope we never see the day when a farmer can't cut down a tree in a pasture without getting a license and hiring a person with the proper certification to do it.

 

[treevet]

it really kind of scares me when I hear statements like treevet made above. It should be "mandated" that you "know how they work" if you're going to "touch" them because "they cannot protect themselves"? C'mon. It makes me nervous to have precedents set that encourage more government control. The US government is one of the most inefficient organizations in the country.

Why don't you and I and your neighbor just become doctors then? Much bigger money and much less equipment involved.

A friend of mine has been complaining about kidney pains. Let's just get inside there and see what is going on.

I can see exceptions for removing ones own trees but as for the argument that anyone can remove a tree......not everyone can decide whether a tree should be removed.....or stay or how to make it stay around longer.

 

[mckeetree]

I understand where you're coming from man, I really do. I've been to Mexico a bunch of times as well as west Africa and I don't want that to be the US. The thing is, one of the things that characterizes places like that is a government that has a huge amount of control over people's decisions. I realize there is a lot more to it than just that but it really kind of scares me when I hear statements like treevet made above. It should be "mandated" that you "know how they work" if you're going to "touch" them because "they cannot protect themselves"? C'mon. It makes me nervous to have precedents set that encourage more government control. The US government is one of the most inefficient organizations in the country. Thats why we're 11.4 trillion dollars in debt and why it costs us taxpayers $12 for Uncle Sam to buy a ####ing ballpoint pen for a secretary to use. I hope we never see the day when a farmer can't cut down a tree in a pasture without getting a license and hiring a person with the proper certification to do it.

Actually, people in Mexico aren't regulated very much by any level of government. That is why their kids don't get the immunizations they need before they start school. That is why your neighbor can maintain an open sh!t house that he never cleans out. That is why the company that sold you the bad can of salmon that almost killed you didn't have to maintain some sort of financial responsibility and the list goes on and on and on. And they want to bring all that here. If you don't believe me, ask them. And as far as the farmer goes, we are talking about the industry not folks working on their own property.

 

[mckeetree]

Why don't you and I and your neighbor just become doctors then? Much bigger money and much less equipment involved.








We could do it if it wasn't for that dadgone medical license. Dadgone that pesky thing.

 

[treevet]

Why don't you and I and your neighbor just become doctors then? Much bigger money and much less equipment involved.








We could do it if it wasn't for that dadgone medical license. Dadgone that pesky thing.

LOL...But if we did go ahead and do it anyway....then we would be considered hacks (oooow, scary) but what would really stop us would be the getting arrested and jail time and not being able to pick up the soap part.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

What happened to the free market system? If a person is willing to do a job for less money and people are willing to hire them then so be it. I, for one, do not want the government and more regulations involved in any more aspects of my life than it already is. People should be able to make their own decisions about who does work for them without Uncle Sam having to lead them by the hand and telling them who is a good arborist and who isn't. I don't think that illegal's should be allowed to get away with it, but somebody that will work for firewood, thats life. I don't like those people bidding against me and driving prices down but thats how it is in a free country. We could do it like China and have the government control all private business. I don't want that to happen and I don't want the US to move that way.

More control, as in mandatory testing, licensing, fees, fines, etc., keeps the hacks out. It's as simple as that. Those already in the biz who fear controls usually are the ones who, deep down inside, feel that they, themselves, are inadequately prepared, intellectually and otherwise, to meet a given set of rules and regulations. The guy willing to take down a 70' high, 50' spread, lightning-struck Cottonwood for $400, because he can "use the wood," against my $1750 bid to do it the professional, correct way, is threatening my livelihood, and I want his #$%* out of here. He is a threat to the homeowner, a threat to the ho's neighbors, a threat to the nearby trees and a threat to himself. I studied long and hard to become a professional arborist. I still take classes and short-courses, I still study for other certification. I pay my dues, my insurance, my taxes, and other obligations involved with our business. I live a comfortable life with a good income, for now. I deserve what I've got in this world, and I @#$*ing worked hard to get it. To just dismiss my good efforts, and the efforts of many of my brothers and sisters in here, when it comes to seeing our standard of living threatened by hacks who will underbid us by 75% as "that's life" is #$%%^&*! There are those who are willing to ratchet down their lifestyles and sink to the same level as the hacks, just to keep working, no doubt about it. I have more respect for myself just as others in here have respect for themselves, and we don't want to live in shacks with ten other folks and their kids. We want the good life we worked so hard for. We have seen our efforts pay off, in the past. We have seen our kids go on to good schools and good professions, and we take pride that we worked hard to help them achieve excellence. To see how certain parts of our population base can now undercut not only our bids but our very lifestyles is not something that ever should have happened in this country and it would NEVER have happened if tighter controls were in place. It's NOT a matter of Big Brother or whatever other guardian figure you wish to invoke. It is a matter of intelligent oversight keeping out the human garbage! Again, just talk to your favorite MD, DDS, DVM, JD or other professional who enjoys a six-figure income courtesy of professional oversight control organizations.

 

[treesandsurf]

The utility world is a universe away from residential work. Trees suddenly become line items and rows. Of course there are the exceptions, but if your initial motivation for getting into this industry because of an interest and care for trees, I would think very carefully about this move.

Take the energy you are using pondering about the switch and crack the case to find new approaches to care for trees in tough economic times. There's got to be an answer opcorn:.

(when you find out, let me know )

jp

 

[Bearcreek]

More control, as in mandatory testing, licensing, fees, fines, etc., keeps the hacks out. It's as simple as that. Those already in the biz who fear controls usually are the ones who, deep down inside, feel that they, themselves, are inadequately prepared, intellectually and otherwise, to meet a given set of rules and regulations. The guy willing to take down a 70' high, 50' spread, lightning-struck Cottonwood for $400, because he can "use the wood," against my $1750 bid to do it the professional, correct way, is threatening my livelihood, and I want his #$%* out of here. He is a threat to the homeowner, a threat to the ho's neighbors, a threat to the nearby trees and a threat to himself. I studied long and hard to become a professional arborist. I still take classes and short-courses, I still study for other certification. I pay my dues, my insurance, my taxes, and other obligations involved with our business. I live a comfortable life with a good income, for now. I deserve what I've got in this world, and I @#$*ing worked hard to get it. To just dismiss my good efforts, and the efforts of many of my brothers and sisters in here, when it comes to seeing our standard of living threatened by hacks who will underbid us by 75% as "that's life" is #$%%^&*! There are those who are willing to ratchet down their lifestyles and sink to the same level as the hacks, just to keep working, no doubt about it. I have more respect for myself just as others in here have respect for themselves, and we don't want to live in shacks with ten other folks and their kids. We want the good life we worked so hard for. We have seen our efforts pay off, in the past. We have seen our kids go on to good schools and good professions, and we take pride that we worked hard to help them achieve excellence. To see how certain parts of our population base can now undercut not only our bids but our very lifestyles is not something that ever should have happened in this country and it would NEVER have happened if tighter controls were in place. It's NOT a matter of Big Brother or whatever other guardian figure you wish to invoke. It is a matter of intelligent oversight keeping out the human garbage! Again, just talk to your favorite MD, DDS, DVM, JD or other professional who enjoys a six-figure income courtesy of professional oversight control organizations.

Gentlemen, I respectfully disagree with much of what has been said here, but I don't think we'll really get anywhere arguing about it so im bowing out of this thread.

 

[mckeetree]

More control, as in mandatory testing, licensing, fees, fines, etc., keeps the hacks out. It's as simple as that. Those already in the biz who fear controls usually are the ones who, deep down inside, feel that they, themselves, are inadequately prepared, intellectually and otherwise, to meet a given set of rules and regulations. The guy willing to take down a 70' high, 50' spread, lightning-struck Cottonwood for $400, because he can "use the wood," against my $1750 bid to do it the professional, correct way, is threatening my livelihood, and I want his #$%* out of here. He is a threat to the homeowner, a threat to the ho's neighbors, a threat to the nearby trees and a threat to himself. I studied long and hard to become a professional arborist. I still take classes and short-courses, I still study for other certification. I pay my dues, my insurance, my taxes, and other obligations involved with our business. I live a comfortable life with a good income, for now. I deserve what I've got in this world, and I @#$*ing worked hard to get it. To just dismiss my good efforts, and the efforts of many of my brothers and sisters in here, when it comes to seeing our standard of living threatened by hacks who will underbid us by 75% as "that's life" is #$%%^&*! There are those who are willing to ratchet down their lifestyles and sink to the same level as the hacks, just to keep working, no doubt about it. I have more respect for myself just as others in here have respect for themselves, and we don't want to live in shacks with ten other folks and their kids. We want the good life we worked so hard for. We have seen our efforts pay off, in the past. We have seen our kids go on to good schools and good professions, and we take pride that we worked hard to help them achieve excellence. To see how certain parts of our population base can now undercut not only our bids but our very lifestyles is not something that ever should have happened in this country and it would NEVER have happened if tighter controls were in place. It's NOT a matter of Big Brother or whatever other guardian figure you wish to invoke. It is a matter of intelligent oversight keeping out the human garbage! Again, just talk to your favorite MD, DDS, DVM, JD or other professional who enjoys a six-figure income courtesy of professional oversight control organizations.

Excellent post.

 

[treevet]

The utility world is a universe away from residential work. Trees suddenly become line items and rows. Of course there are the exceptions, but if your initial motivation for getting into this industry because of an interest and care for trees, I would think very carefully about this move.

Take the energy you are using pondering about the switch and crack the case to find new approaches to care for trees in tough economic times. There's got to be an answer opcorn:.

(when you find out, let me know )

jp

In tough economic times it has been said that you need to be either "real cheap" or "real different". I suggest that to give excellent service is real different these days.

 

[Greenstar]

More control, as in mandatory testing, licensing, fees, fines, etc., keeps the hacks out. It's as simple as that. Those already in the biz who fear controls usually are the ones who, deep down inside, feel that they, themselves, are inadequately prepared, intellectually and otherwise, to meet a given set of rules and regulations. The guy willing to take down a 70' high, 50' spread, lightning-struck Cottonwood for $400, because he can "use the wood," against my $1750 bid to do it the professional, correct way, is threatening my livelihood, and I want his #$%* out of here. He is a threat to the homeowner, a threat to the ho's neighbors, a threat to the nearby trees and a threat to himself. I studied long and hard to become a professional arborist. I still take classes and short-courses, I still study for other certification. I pay my dues, my insurance, my taxes, and other obligations involved with our business. I live a comfortable life with a good income, for now. I deserve what I've got in this world, and I @#$*ing worked hard to get it. To just dismiss my good efforts, and the efforts of many of my brothers and sisters in here, when it comes to seeing our standard of living threatened by hacks who will underbid us by 75% as "that's life" is #$%%^&*! There are those who are willing to ratchet down their lifestyles and sink to the same level as the hacks, just to keep working, no doubt about it. I have more respect for myself just as others in here have respect for themselves, and we don't want to live in shacks with ten other folks and their kids. We want the good life we worked so hard for. We have seen our efforts pay off, in the past. We have seen our kids go on to good schools and good professions, and we take pride that we worked hard to help them achieve excellence. To see how certain parts of our population base can now undercut not only our bids but our very lifestyles is not something that ever should have happened in this country and it would NEVER have happened if tighter controls were in place. It's NOT a matter of Big Brother or whatever other guardian figure you wish to invoke. It is a matter of intelligent oversight keeping out the human garbage! Again, just talk to your favorite MD, DDS, DVM, JD or other professional who enjoys a six-figure income courtesy of professional oversight control organizations.

It is an impressive well written post, HOWEVER.. as much as I also do not like hacks outbidding me, in this recession everyone is doing something to save a buck, or make a buck.
Tell me this... if you could get your lawn cut for $75, or $25 what would you pay??
I would pay the $25, I dont know about you personally...
I would expect it maybe to not come out perfectly, but its just a cut! Also, if a guy cuts his foot off with his mower, he better have insurance becasue I sure aint payin for it...
Everyone is doin something to save a buck these days...

How much do you pay for your kids haircuts? $8 at the new barber shop down on the corner, or $20? (Maybe thats not a great analogy..)

Anyway, my point being is that although I also do not like being underbid... I accept that when it comes to a removal for example, there is always that risk, because its very cut and dry.
This is why I often try to branch out with what I do. I like to offer other services at the same time. Give an incentive to the customer. Educate them... Etc... Get crafty and find other ways to compete with those guys so I can still get my cake and eat it too..

As far as pruning work and other tree preservation work goes... industries are always changing. The more time that goes by, the more competition and changes that happen in an industry. Thats just how an industrialized naton is. You gotta stay on top of your industry and diversify.
Now I am not trying to say you don't have a right to vent, and be upset about not making as much money as you used to, or about having to undergo some changes and/or rethinking of your market approach/niche whatever.. But I guess what I am also saying is that it is a free country.
You gotta stay on top of your game! Switch things up. Change your image, logo, something. Change your marketing strategy. And educate your potential clients. And try something different.
Look at what happened to Ford and GM...
Communications, ergonomics, and also technology has come such a long way in the past few decades and they weren't changing fast enough. They were still doing things largely the same way. Newer younger companies gained a better hold on the market. Now Ford is being forced to almost rethink everything, and restructure!
Those oldtimers up there are Ford were being shown up.

I think its more about that, than about a bunch of hacks running around doing ghetto work and people liking them better. You may be forced to now more aggressively persue clients, and modify your selling program.

Cutting a tree is cutting a tree. Learn how to compete.
Rethink some of your financial statements, expenditures, and overhead, and again learn how to compete during these times.

When it comes to pruning, most customers know they are going to get what the pay for, and if you want to give them a flyer on "Why to Hire a Professional Arborist" from the ISA, and give it to them.


Also, just one more thing... Are you having other non work related problems? Because you really seem quite upset and very frustrated with this.
Hey man just be thankful you have a job right now.
Again, no disrespect, but step it up, and make some changes! You seem like you're a very knowledgeable guy, and trees are alwasys going to need good tree work.

Peace,

Greenstar-Boston

PS. Cambridge Landscaping is constantly outbidding me, and they are a large company! They'll do $1,200-$1,500 removals for $750! It pisses me off, so I just know that I have to get there first. And I've also changed my ads
good luck!

 

[Sunrise Guy]

(snip)-----if a guy cuts his foot off with his mower, he better have insurance becasue I sure aint payin for it...(snip)

Ah---but with a hack, you just might. That is a tangential point to my previous posts: Hacks don't carry insurance. They don't pay for anything that goes along with professional standing and that is one of the main reasons they can undercut the #$^ out of our prices.

Your post is also a good one, and you make some good points. In the final analysis, though, it is the underbidding hacks who are riling me and making me think about going into another related line of our profession. As for your question about my (possibly) having other things getting me angry---No, my life is cool, I love my woman, my kids are doing well (one will be a Doctor by next July), my rental houses are fine, tenants good, my home is in good shape, I bailed from the market and got into jumbo CD's before the crash, truck is running well, saws OK, ropes fine, -------.

I do not want to run this thread into the ground, so I am making this my last post, in it. If we had strict regulation of our profession, as noted earlier, we would all benefit, greatly. It won't happen, as I see it, because the public at large does not understand how hacks can hurt their trees and their properties and them. We can try to educate them, but, again, as I see it, many lack the intelligence to understand basic arboricultural concepts and/or only care about their bottom line as in, "Heck, all I want is a couple of branches cut down. Why should that cost me more than $25?" It's unfortunate, but it is the way it is.