nothing but climb?

[diltree]

When conducting tree removals buckets are far more efficient then climb outs. Id estimate that 90% of the tree removal Jobs that we bid can be executed with the use of our 62 ft rear mount aerial lift of conn. Even jobs performed by an excellent climber/rigger can be done in half the time with the utilization of an aerial lift. As far as pruning goes, obviously you need a climber to thin out a maple, or remove the interior deadwood, Still an aerial lift comes in pretty handy if a customer wants to reduce the crown, or shape the same tree. Also a lift can be absolutely necessary when trees are in contact with electrical conductors. In order to offer a full service company, that can take on any job, you need to have access to a good climber as well as an aerial lift. With that said if I had to choose between my ability to climb and my access to an aerial lift.....I choose the Lift.


www.dillontree.com

 

[TimberMcPherson]

Unless your clearing powerlines, buckets in this steep twisty town are only usable in about 1% of jobs. Everythings done on the climb.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

The first several years I climbed, we didn't have or use a bucket. It did make me a better climber, that's for sure. I was forced to learn techniques to safely climb hazardous trees.
There are always trees you just can't get trucks too, so it's a good skill to have.
Now that we have a bucket, it tends to make me lazy. It gets driven over roots, causing compaction, when with just a little extra effort you could save the soil and just climb. Often it's faster to climb, but easier to use the bucket, so you use the bucket.
The bucket does have it's place though, and it's great to have for some jobs.

 

[jonseredbred]

in my market if you dont have a bucket you wont eat. (around here if you dont have a rearmount even) Very, very, rarely do we ever get a customer who wants to pay the difference between climbing and or losing bushes, flowers to get a truck in. All of our competition is this way so we have to bid that way too to stay alive.

As far as compaction, I dont think its that big of a deal, we board everything in and the weight of a truck spread out on a 2' x 4' piece of 1" plywood results in a low PSI. The furniture truck that backs across a front lawn a week after you trim the tree's will do more damage (yet the homeowner doesnt care).

To say that bucket users are hacks? no, we are just responding to our unique market conditions. I can guarantee you I can trim and thin out tree's from the outside (in a bucket) as efficiently and without breaking off good limbs as any climber out there, its just a different mindset and approach.

Some guys that are buying ex utility buckets that are set up for line work and weigh 30,000# are the exception, they have no reason to be in a back lawn. I often enjoy seeing an ex "big orange" truck buried in a back lawn, nosed up to a tree and the ground crew dragging brush halfway around the neighborhood to get to the chiper hooked to the back of it.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

As far as compaction, I dont think its that big of a deal, we board everything in and the weight of a truck spread out on a 2' x 4' piece of 1" plywood results in a low PSI.

Kind of like the old spikes on trims don't hurt.

Very, very, rarely do we ever get a customer who wants to pay the difference between climbing and or losing bushes, flowers to get a truck in.

I assume you mean the bucket is cheaper. We don't differentiate the price of a job based on whether or not it's climbed or bucket trucked. In reality, unless your climber is bad, or your doing line clearance, they cost about the same.

 

[jonseredbred]

Please post the math equation you used to figure out the PSI I exert on my customers lawn before making a comparison to spiking tree's.

We bid jobs based on time. If a bucket speeds up the job by reducing the difficulty level it is passed on to the customer. Do you bid jobs based on the type of neighborhood or value of home? It seems that you might be a bad bucket guy to not be able to see the labor and time savings that a bucket can provide(in most instances). We are all climbers in my company, its just that the market requires you to compete and you cant survive unless you adjust. it would be great if my customers worried about all the things that a "purist arborist" does but they simply don't.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

THe city of Milwuakee Forestry Dept. has done time/cost studies of their bucket and climbing crews. The results were discussed at a past WAA meeting were it was revieled that the climbing crews were cheaper to run. A lot of their trees are right on the street too.
To me it makes sense, having done a lot of both types of work.
As for the compaction issue, if you really do use 1" wood, and have enough to keep your truck on it, good for you, but wood bends and loads change as the truck moves, so an accurate mathematical formula wound be difficult to arrive at.
Even if you are very cautious, your still going to get at least some compaction. Also, it takes time to move a truck across wood, and considerable effort too. By the time you get the truck through the yard, run over flowers and shrubs, compact the soil, then account for the time to get the truck out, I might be done with the tree.

 

[jonseredbred]

take the cost of a new bucket, out the operating expense, I am sure it is cheaper to send a guy up the tree. do you think city crews climb as hard an fast as someone self employed? no way. I bet they are self insured so insurance cost is not factored in. Ask your insurance agent to quote you if you climb 100% of everything vs. using a certified lift 100% of the time. it will scare you.

As far a s PSI, my bucket on plywood exerts about 5.2 PSI (assuming 4 pressure points of only 4 sf each). if you wiegh 200# and have at least a size 11 shoe you exert anywhere from 3.5 to 5 psi depending if you are wearing flat boots vs. climbing boots, bang your heels down as you walk and dont bunny hop to the tree.

 

[rebelman]

I often see where work was done to a tree based on what the bucket truck could reach. Often finishing cuts are not proper. I guess you would have to move the entire truck to the other side or something to finish strong. I guess that would take more time. Bidding by time involved in that situation wouldn't make for good tree care. Instead of making pruning descisions based on what the tree needs, you're letting the limitations of the bucket effect the process. Just my two cents.

 

[jonseredbred]

that is just bad treework, not a buckets fault.

maybe you missed what I meant on bidding by time, we dont do tree work hourly. Simply how long we know it will take to do the proper job. Some of my competition prices by the cost of your house.

 

[John464]

that is just bad treework, not a buckets fault.

maybe you missed what I meant on bidding by time, we dont do tree work hourly. Simply how long we know it will take to do the proper job. Some of my competition prices by the cost of your house.

i agree
the bucket wasnt tall enough and or the operator chose not to flush his ripped cuts. The same type of example we see happen... the climber who cant climb out on those ends because they will break, so he just cuts where he can.

I also bid based on time. Who doesn't? The first question I ask myself when bidding on a job how long do I think this will take a crew to complete it. Afterall, your biggest daily expense is your staff, in which gets paid for their time. Time=money . Anyone in business knows the more efficient you can be on a daily basis the more work you can consume week after week.

 

[jonseredbred]

It seems my competition doesnt bid based on time. More than once I have seen them jack prices for the same quanity of work based on wether or not it is a 400k house vs, a 150k house.

 

[woodchux]

The cover picture on tree service magazine showed a bucket operator leaving stubs a couple months ago.

As far as charging more in high end neighborhoods......
Well what's wrong with that ? They can afford it. I look at it as charging less in poorer neighborhoods. Sliding scale to the benefit of those who need it .

 

[squisher]

Ya like the robinhood of tree care .

Nothing wrong with that. Someone needs to make up for the little old lady who really needs her trees done but can't afford it. It might as well be the dude living in the million dollar plus house right on the lake. No disrespect meant to all you stinking filthy rich people out there.

 

[treebogan]

Climb,climb,its fine,all the time,except around power lines

Climer here!

I hate bucket trucks,have worked with them a bit and know they have their place.I don't have any fond memories of them and put it to the board to find out wether an absolute "gun" climber is worth more than a great bucket truck guy?

 

[elmnut]

"gun" climber? Climbers should be able to run any bucket made, know the difference between a safe lift and a dangerous one, run a log loader, chipper, stump machine, and chainsaw. A climber should be able to maintain all of this equipment, get it unstuck, and teach the crew how also. A climber should be the best crew member at dragging brush, raking up debris, parking trucks, dealing with clients, and lending lunch money to the ground man. A "gun" climber can walk a first day hire through the most technical removal imaginable. A "gun" climber never makes up his own nicknames such as "maverick" "goose" "iceman" or "gun". Nicknames are assigned, that is why there are guys called "dirty steve" or "breaker bob" . A "gun" climber knows it is easier to agree with the drunk at the bar that craftsman chainsaws are the best even if he runs another brand. A "gun" climber can always convinve another climber on the crew that this job will teach them the rest of what they need to know.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Since I know Mr Maas, I will support him here. He is a very good climber (rainman voice).

Seriously he is the type of practitioner who has learned trade every year.

A bucket is just another tool, if a company can afford one and use it properly then they will be better for it.

Many small companies cannot afford to keep a bucket on the books because they do not have the volume to pay for it.

if you owe 100k @ 9%, you need to earn over 400 /wk just to pay the loan.

Many jobs a bucket is better, many a climber is better. Quite a few a tag team works better.

 

[treebogan]

"Gun"

"Gun" is a New Zealand term for someone with excellent skills in what they do.Unlike here in the states theres not as much money in Arb work in NZ so most of us who started out ten years ago didn't and don't have/own a bucket truck.I've worked in Six countries contract climbing and or as part of a company full time,outside of the states only once was a quizzed as to wether I had bucket truck experiance.My international experiance has been that bucket work is done by the locals and climbing is doen by the pros.

Where wlse have you worked?

 

[squisher]

Lets not derail this thread too. The trend I'm seeing here is some climb exclusively, some use a boom exclusively, and others use what is best for the given situation which would seem to make the most sense to me. Keeping an open mind is what it's all about. If there is an easier wat that's the way I want to do it. Being stubborn and set in our ways can lead to dangerous situations we need to be flexible and adaptable in order to succeed on the individual job and in the long run.

Now if you already need to have a chip truck then why not have a boom on it to give yourself that option. It seems to me it would just be like having another trick in your bag.

:rockn:

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Now if you already need to have a chip truck then why not have a boom on it to give yourself that option. It seems to me it would just be like having another trick in your bag.

Around here many of the micro companies use 1 ton dumps due to cost and accesability