Oklahoma,AR,MO,KS,TX GTG (Next GTG 08/27/2016 ) Fort Scott, KS

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It seems there is a wee bit of misinformation here.

As I see it, the vacuum is to accelerate the drying process without negatively affecting the quality of the wood.

ANY pressure differential will greatly affect the process. Where does the heat come in?

As I recall, and I'm not googling it, it is a 3 - 4 week process of increasing heat to kiln dry wood. Culminating with 180 or so degrees which is the bug kill.

My ancient memory, and I'm not googling it, is that we are 13 - 15 pounds of pressure now. So even taking the pressure down 2 pounds should really pump the water out.

My objective is to achieve this 2 pound (or whatever is easy) differential quickly, and when the internal pressure of the board equalizes, then allow to return to atmospheric.

It should 'fog' immediately with a pressure drop.

Two Assumptions:

Above Freezing
The moisture ladened air is removed from the environment via the vacuum

Commercial kilning operations have specific formulas for a given species of wood, but the process generally goes like this:

For 4/4 lumber that has air dried 6 months, preferably winter (dormant) cut in bound bundles. (the law of averages has that a bundle of wood sticker stacked and bound tight will be more or less straight)

A slow and gradual ramp up in temp (controlled by computer) over more or less a week's time up to say 160 degrees.

Steam charge ramping up the temp over several days? (this is where trade secrets differ, dependent upon certain species)

An abrupt change to an air conditioned climate (air dryer) for several days. (commercial kilns are no where tight enough to hold bar, this is where the vac system would greatly hasten the process)

High speed fans opportunistically turned on to outside air when humidity permits.

The whole process taking 2-3 weeks (again, species dependent and 4/4 stock) The heat (steam process) is critical for relieving internal stresses in the wood as well as facilitating good bug and spore kill.



My point being to somehow incorporate these standards with the vac process……..
 
I got some comments. I hope this doesn't sound contentious, because I am only trying to help. Physics and chemistry are an area I have no small amount of schooling in. I know you didn't ask my advice, so disregard these comments if you wish.

My remarks are in Burgundy font.

It seems there is a wee bit of misinformation here. Yes!

As I see it, the vacuum is to accelerate the drying process without negatively affecting the quality of the wood. Absolutely. I have no idea whether the vacuum kiln will distort the wood or cause checking. Both of these problems are caused at least in part by unequal drying in the wood. The vacuum process should equalize evaporation, since unlike heat and fan processes, it is equally distributed at all points inside the kiln. If you discover that the vacuum process causes warping, then you will wish to adjust your vacuum switch upward to apply less vacuum.

ANY pressure differential will greatly affect the process. Where does the heat come in? You got that right! By creating a vacuum kiln, you have made an air conditioner of sorts, with the wood acting as the "evaporator". This is the part of your car that gets cold when you turn on the AC.

Water has what is called a "vapor pressure" at every temperature. At 212° F, that vapor pressure exceeds the atmospheric pressure, and the water boils. When you reduce the atmospheric pressure with vacuum, the vapor pressure of water for any given temperature does not change, and the water can boil off at room temperature; it can even boil at temperatures below 32° F. As the water boils off (or just evaporates), the heat contained in the water goes into the air, and the water containing vessel gets colder. Effectively, you are pumping heat out along with the water vapor.

Example: In a laboratory, I have put a flask of water under high vacuum, and the water begins boiling. It rapidly cools off so much that the boiling stops entirely, and frost begins to form on the outside of the flask, caused by the cooling that has occurred on the inside due to evaporation. If I then put just my hand on the bottom of the flask, the water begins to boil again! This a particularly fun thing to do, and most kids in High School chemistry have done it.

In the note I posted above, a small electric heater is suggested so as to reverse the evaporative cooling caused by the vacuum. Just putting your vacuu-ln in the sun would have the same effect.


As I recall, and I'm not googling it, it is a 3 - 4 week process of increasing heat to kiln dry wood. Culminating with 180 or so degrees which is the bug kill.

My ancient memory, and I'm not googling it, is that we are 13 - 15 pounds of pressure now.
Yep. So even taking the pressure down 2 pounds should really pump the water out. Again, you got that right!

My objective is to achieve this 2 pound (or whatever is easy) differential quickly, and when the internal pressure of the board equalizes, then allow to return to atmospheric. This is a logical flaw in your process: the pressure in the wood will be equalized almost instantly, since the wood does not really act like a pressure vessel that can hold air pressure in. What will occur is that the water evaporates out of the wood at a faster rate than normal. When you turn off the vacuum, the rapid evaporation stops, but the wood will have been cooled off by the accelerated evaporation. If you just do that on a short-cycle basis, the cooler wood will cause condensation, and then at least some of the water vapor will condense back inside the wood.

There is another serious flaw with this plan: you will be expending energy ($$$) to create the vacuum. If you simply vent the vacuum, you will be wasting that energy. Just let the water in the wood out-gas until the pressure comes back up...then hit it again. An adjustable vacuum switch would do that automatically at relatively low expense.
[/B]

It should 'fog' immediately with a pressure drop. No fog will form until you release the vacuum. Your pressure vessel will be warmer than the internal atmosphere (that evaporative cooling gets around), and it will not condense on the higher temperature material. When you release the vacuum, the vessel will have been cooled just a little bit, and then it will fog on the inside.

Two Assumptions:

Above Freezing
Even if it is well below freezing, water ALWAYS has a vapor pressure, and that causes the H2O molecules to jump into the air. When this occurs from liquid water, we call it evaporation. When H2O leaps into the air from it's solid form (ice), we call it sublimation. Ever had freeze dried food? That is how they make it. Freeze it...Vacuum the water out. Do you also remember that freeze dried food has mostly the same shape as the original food? I would think freeze-drying the wood might reduce warping.

Either way, your wood will dry faster under continuous vacuum.


The moisture ladened air is removed from the environment via the vacuum.

True. Under a continuous vacuum, all of the the air is removed and your vacuu-ln is filled with 100% water vapor. Effectively, it is pure steam at a reduced pressure. I suppose that there will be some volatile elements of the wood that might jump into the atmosphere also.
 
Thought I'd try to load a pix of this saw I just got with the Tapatalk that WSC convinced me would cure my inability to do pix on AS.

ny7yjyru.jpg
 
Thank you. I was real happy when I started it the first time Saturday. Started and ran really nice. These old Pioneer/Poulan's for some reason remind me of the old muscle cars.
 
We were considering a long propane tank, possibly 500 board feet at a time or more. Kind of a hyperbaric chamber……..I see great promise in drying 8/4 and thicker stock with the vac……….

That is exactly what I wanted to do. I see angle irons welded into the lower edges to serve as tracks for rollers on carts to move the lumber in and out.

I have never found a big enough propane tank to make it worthwhile.

I would like to get a really huge tank that would allow pallets of material to be loaded. If the process turns out to make lousy lumber, you could always use it to season firewood uber-fast.

I think you have inspired a new name: the Hypobaric kiln.
 
Thank you. I was real happy when I started it the first time Saturday. Started and ran really nice. These old Pioneer/Poulan's for some reason remind me of the old muscle cars.

Nice saw,it deserves a 10 mil. rep,Bam.
 
Hows it going Jim.

Pretty good,not getting as much done as I should. Cutting a little wood and working on some saws. Found a 034 and a 019t on the back back porch when I got home from Jasper. 034 had a toasted p/c,sold him a nice 034 cheaper than I could fix his. I've been walking around the 019, they are a nightmare to work on.:bang: Most stihl techs hate them. Do you have that Mac 99 in your apartment to work on during the week?:biggrin: I hope to get my DA211 running this winter.
 
Pretty good,not getting as much done as I should. Cutting a little wood and working on some saws. Found a 034 and a 019t on the back back porch when I got home from Jasper. 034 had a toasted p/c,sold him a nice 034 cheaper than I could fix his. I've been walking around the 019, they are a nightmare to work on.:bang: Most stihl techs hate them. Do you have that Mac 99 in your apartment to work on during the week?:biggrin: I hope to get my DA211 running this winter.

Apartment isn't that big.:msp_w00t::msp_w00t::msp_w00t:
 
That is exactly what I wanted to do. I see angle irons welded into the lower edges to serve as tracks for rollers on carts to move the lumber in and out.

I have never found a big enough propane tank to make it worthwhile.

I would like to get a really huge tank that would allow pallets of material to be loaded. If the process turns out to make lousy lumber, you could always use it to season firewood uber-fast.

I think you have inspired a new name: the Hypobaric kiln.

Oh yes hypo, apologies for the typo. :D

So here's my question(s), assuming you have a tight enough vessel to pull bar and hold it, is what does the water do in there. Does it condense on the ceiling and gravitate to the lowest point? Does it stay gaseous? Could you pull a strong enough bar to kill insect larva?

And what is that smell coming from Hedgerow's house?:wink2:
 
Again, I'm not going to google it, but is it Hypo or 'under' does hypo mean less than barometric ?

This thing would have less than atmospheric pressure.

I see its value in drying beams.
 
Does anyone agree that if the vacuum system works, then also a pressure system would work , equally well?
 
Oh yes hypo, apologies for the typo. :D

So here's my question(s), assuming you have a tight enough vessel to pull bar and hold it, is what does the water do in there. Does it condense on the ceiling and gravitate to the lowest point? Does it stay gaseous? Could you pull a strong enough bar to kill insect larva?

And what is that smell coming from Hedgerow's house?:wink2:

How the hell did I get brought into your egg headed conversation???
And to answer your question, if you put enough vacuum to a reefer trailer strong enough to kill larvae, you'd collapse the sides...
You'd need -4 lbs to really mess up cellular activity...
Just sayin...
:msp_rolleyes:
 
Grandpa Tractor, thank you for the lesson on the sharpening jig. Bought one today and went right to work on one of the saws. It really makes a big difference over the STIHL filing jig.

Hal

Your welcome Hal. It was great to finally meet you and your wife!
That's part of the fun at these GTG's.
 
How the hell did I get brought into your egg headed conversation???
And to answer your question, if you put enough vacuum to a reefer trailer strong enough to kill larvae, you'd collapse the sides...
You'd need -4 lbs to really mess up cellular activity...
Just sayin...
:msp_rolleyes:

Lol, we were talkin' propane tank Matt. They're rated for 300lb's positive pressure, but the submarine shape they assume leads me to believe they could hold a hell of a lot of vacuum……...
 

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