Oklahoma,AR,MO,KS,TX GTG (Next GTG 08/27/2016 ) Fort Scott, KS

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Could you pull a strong enough bar to kill insect larva?

We had a customer come in about a month ago that proved that a rat couldn't survive a little over -1 Bar. The customer kept his foot on the floor trying to get the car to have enough power to pull itself with the rodent stuck in the air cleaner snorkle. The vacuum held him in the snorkle so he couldn't back out and he literally had the life sucked out of him.:msp_ohmy:
 
Ok, you guys got some questions. Good, gives me something to do.


RVALUE: Again, I'm not going to google it, but is it Hypo or 'under' does hypo mean less than barometric ?

Yep. You got it! Hypo means "less than" or "beneath"; it's one of those greek prefixes that get tossed around a lot in medicine and science in general.

Hypochondriacs? I had to look that one up: "Use of the term hypochondriasis for a state of disease without real cause, reflects the ancient belief that the viscera of the hypochondria were the seat of melancholy and source of the vapors that caused such morbid feelings."

Any circular structure with a reasonable amount of rigidity should be able to stand total vacuum. If a total vacuum were applied, it would only be 15lbs (roughly) pressure per sq.inch. This is nothing to a 300lb rated steel vessel. A plastic or glass bell jar is frequently used in a lab for holding nearly perfect vacuum.

Regarding what happens to the water under a vacuum: Not much. It doesn't move around, it won't go condensing on the sides of the tank. Any water that does seep out of the wood will drip onto whatever is beneath it. Here is the difference from regular kiln drying: All the water in the tank will begin to evaporate at a faster rate, and all the wood that contains the water will be cooled by the evaporation. This evaporation will continue to be faster than normal until all the latent heat in the water and the wood is used up to force the evaporation (or sublimation). After a while, the evaporation rate does slow down, and then you are limited a bit by how much heat gets back into your vacuum chamber. Since the vacuum process reduces the amount of heat needed to evaporate the water, the drying time is much faster and the amount of heat that is required to move the water out of the wood is much lower.

I guess I may not have answered the question completely. Each 18 grams of water will expand into 22.4 liters of gaseous water at standard pressure. A rough translation: each 8lbs of water that you evaporate will turn into around 1200 gallons of water vapor on a warm day. When the water evaporates, it fills the vacuum, and gives the vacuum pump something else to suck out of the tank. Your little vacuum pump will be rather busy sucking out all the water vapor out of several hundred pounds of wet wood.

Regarding pressurizing the wood to effect a drying process: Nope. Won't work. If you pressurize the atmosphere around the wood, you have made the actual pressure much greater than the "vapor-pressure" of the water contained in the wood. So...the little water molecules have a much harder time leaping into the air, and they stay inside your timber.

Regarding insect larvae and eggs? I don't know. A high vacuum does three very bad things to a living organism:

1. It will cause rapid outgassing inside the viscera of the bugs. This will be a big bellyache followed by popping bug bellies. Death by physical rupture.
2. It reduces the oxygen content and pressure so low that they cannot possibly breath. In the 100% humidity of the vacuum kiln, there would be no oxygen left to breath. Death by asphyxiation.
3. The bugs will have the same problem with dessication that the wood does. All the water vapor is being sucked out of the chamber. Death by dessication!

I imagine that almost all boring insect larvae will be killed instantly upon treatment of a high vacuum, and I don't think their eggs will last a long time. Insect eggs are pretty tough, and they are made to withstand winter dessication. Borers are the worst problems in lumber, and they survive winter in the pupal stage, emerging in spring as adults. So...larvae, adults, and pupae should be wiped out by a strong vacuum. Borer eggs are laid in early summer, and would be removed by any bark removal process.

So...I think all the bugs would be killed by a vacuum process of -5lbs or more. Long duration treatment at lower vacuum would get them too.
 
We had a customer come in about a month ago that proved that a rat couldn't survive a little over -1 Bar. The customer kept his foot on the floor trying to get the car to have enough power to pull itself with the rodent stuck in the air cleaner snorkle. The vacuum held him in the snorkle so he couldn't back out and he literally had the life sucked out of him.:msp_ohmy:

-1 Bar would be complete (atmospheric) vacuum. I know car intakes can generate a lot of vacuum, but it wouldn't be that much. I think manifold vacuum is typically measured in inches of mercury, and 28" of mercury is generally considered to be total vacuum. I think max manifold vacuum of around 22" Hg is still plenty of suction.

Maybe Rvalue will just hook up the manifold vacuum on his tractor up to the ol' propane tank, and then suck it dry. Actually, that would work!
 
Does anyone agree that if the vacuum system works, then also a pressure system would work , equally well?

No, since most of what the vacuum is doing is lowering the boiling point of water, just the opposite of how pressurizing a car's cooling system raises it.

For a pump, got any old dairy farms around that gave up milking but might still have the equipment? Dairy milking systems run off a vac pump...
 
Regarding pressurizing the wood to effect a drying process: Nope. Won't work. If you pressurize the atmosphere around the wood, you have made the actual pressure much greater than the "vapor-pressure" of the water contained in the wood. So...the little water molecules have a much harder time leaping into the air, and they stay inside your timber.


Once again, I will dumb down the answer.


IF a vacuum works, then positive pressure would work too. How? By releasing the positive pressure.

ie pressure up the vessel, (difficult apparatus) and then the drying occurs during the 'depressurizing phase'. Not easy, but plausible.

I think the major drying would occur (in the vacuum system) during the time when the pressure is equalizing, and carries the liquid water out. Yes, there would have been sublimation, but I think its effectiveness would be minimal.

However I have been wrong or amazed before. :)

I doubt the car made -1 bar, however it did drop a pound or two.

Doesn't the humane society :msp_scared: use negative pressure to kill your dogs?

I think the general consensus that bugs and bug eggs are pretty tough is an understatement.


bugs and coyotes.........
 
IF a vacuum works, then positive pressure would work too. How? By releasing the positive pressure.

ie pressure up the vessel, (difficult apparatus) and then the drying occurs during the 'depressurizing phase'. Not easy, but plausible.

I think the major drying would occur (in the vacuum system) during the time when the pressure is equalizing, and carries the liquid water out. Yes, there would have been sublimation, but I think its effectiveness would be minimal.

I think you need to bone up a bit on the terms "vapor pressure" and "phases of water". When you pressurize the atmosphere over any water supply (liquid or solid phase), you lower the amount of evaporation from that body of water. Since you are seeking to increase the amount of water that evaporates, adding pressure will not help.

Here is a scenario in which adding pressure might accelerate the out-gassing of water from lumber.
1. Take a dried source of air with exceedingly low water content, and pressurize your tank.
2. Wait a long time for the water vapor to reach equilibrium.
3. Vent the pressurized air.

You should be aware that this pressurization will not probably be any faster than just cycling de-humidified air through your tank, without the equilibration cycle.

I think you do not quite understand what the vapor pressure of water is. Here is the my short-version of that concept:

Water will always leap into the air and establish a pressure inside any vessel. If you take a pressure tank with a water layer at the bottom at freezing temperature, vacuum ALL the air out, the pressure at which you reach equilibrium is the "vapor pressure" for water at freezing. If you increase the temperature, wait for equilibrium and re-measure the pressure inside, then you will have the vapor pressure at that temperature.

Regardless of the actual barometric pressure, the vapor pressure of water is determined only by the temperature. It is a physical constant in water, just like the freezing point and the boiling point under standard conditions.

When the actual pressure around a body of water is lower than the vapor pressure of the water...you will get rapid evaporation. When you increase the actual pressure well above the vapor pressure of the water for any given temperature, you will reduce evaporation. These are the physical properties of water, and they never change.

I think you can be assured that any method of kiln drying of wood that uses increased pressure will take way too much energy. The whole idea behind the vacuum process is not that it works magically better somehow than normal air drying, but that it will use less energy for rapid dehydration than heating the wood. You could dry the wood out rather rapidly by baking it at180°F, but look at all the energy you would be burning up. It also allows you to accelerate the drying process without heating the wood up so much that you do damage to it.

The vacuum kiln should be able to accomplish rapid drying of wood with less tendency to have uneven drying. It will be way more energy intensive than a plain solar kiln, or simply covering with a tarp and waiting for summer to do the drying for you. Generating a vacuum takes energy; just not as much energy as boiling off all the water. Even that equation will be subject to the efficiency of your vacuum pump.

Your pressurization method will use more energy than simply heating up the wood and drying with forced air.
 
...
I think the major drying would occur (in the vacuum system) during the time when the pressure is equalizing, and carries the liquid water out. Yes, there would have been sublimation, but I think its effectiveness would be minimal.

However I have been wrong or amazed before. :)
...

What you need to do is actually see water boiling from the heat of your palm. It is a complete revelation to feel a beaker of ice-cold water boiling in your palm. Take your palm away, the boiling stops.

Once you see that happen, it all becomes clear. You can actually feel the heat of your hand converting water into water vapor.
 
For a vessel

If you all still need a tank, when the local propane company sells their old trucks they now sell the tanks with them. They get new trucks w/tanks as a system complete. Around here, people who buy the trucks will give the tank away because the scrap yard will not take. Hope you get the kiln to work.
 
If you all still need a tank, when the local propane company sells their old trucks they now sell the tanks with them. They get new trucks w/tanks as a system complete. Around here, people who buy the trucks will give the tank away because the scrap yard will not take. Hope you get the kiln to work.

There's some food for thought...
 

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