Old and New Growth wood,What makes it old and what makes it new?

[JOE.G]

Just wondering what makes wood old growth? What makes it new? I always hear how Old Growth is better, I am logging some of my Property, I do sections every winter and I always hear how the Lumber that come off my Property is Real nice, this goes for the soft and hard woods.

I know some of this Property has never been touched ( At least in the last 60 Years )and I know some of it was farm land pastures many many years ago.

So I was just wondering how many years does it take to make a tree called Old Growth.

 

[slowp]

I don't know. The environmental groups keep going younger...seriously. To me it has more to do with being a mature, untouched stand of trees. That stuff tends to grow slower because it hasn't had any thinning or genetic help. Slower means closer rings and a tighter, stronger grain.

I seem to remember at first it was over 180 years, then to 120 and around here, the Forest Service tries to stay out of 80 year old stuff. That's what I mean about old growth getting younger. The politics define what is old growth now.

Some misguided people think that all big trees are old growth, and that is not at all true. Diameter has nothing to do with it, on harsher ground, and old growth tree could be merely 8 inches in diameter.

 

[madhatte]

The current working definition we're following on the ownership where I work is that "Old-Growth Characteristics" exist in a stand where there are both large and small trees, of diverse species, unevenly spaced, with a large component of both standing and down dead woody material. Note that any mention of age is explicitly omitted. The logic behind this is that we have bought ourselves an exclusion to the new spotted owl regulations by identifying these areas and "Managing For" them. Cool thing is that by creating canopy gaps and encouraging the development of less prominent species through localizing disturbance, we are making MORE of the areas where "Old-Growth Characteristics" exist, without incurring any extra restrictions. I don't think this approach would work as well on private land, at least not in the current export market, but it's certainly do-able, at least on a small scale.

 

[Joe46]

To add to what Slowp said. I cut a stand of DF in the northern part of the state that was 110 yrs old. It was being made into poles and piling, so that gives you some idea of the diameter.

 

[Jacob J.]

The way I've always thought of it after working closely with talented U.S.F.S. and Fish & Wildlife biologists is that there are plant and animal species that occur only in or primarily in an old-growth forest that don't occur normally or with regular frequency in a "reproduction" or secondary growth stand. There's lichens, algae, insects, fungi, and critters that establish themselves in a long-time undisturbed forest ecosystem.

 

[2dogs]

Old growth. That term is defined be the enviro groups and the news media as any tree that should not be cut down. We have lots of old growth eucaplyptus in my area.

 

[JOE.G]

I cut sections of my land every winter Like i stated, i do this because I am trying to keep it healthy ( Of course the money doesn't hurt either ) I tend to have the same guy back every year, but I have had other do some cutting along with what I cut, they all seem to like the wood on my property, the soft wood goes to my buddies lumber yard/mill and he say's that is it is top notch wood, the hard goes off to another yard. I was just wondering, The loggers i have had in he don't think it has ever been cut before so I just wasn't sure if that was the reason for the quality wood,

 

[madhatte]

there are plant and animal species that occur only in or primarily in an old-growth forest

These are the "Old-Growth Characteristics" I'm talking about. We use the sensitive species as indicators of the health of the forest, and press to create more, so as to relieve the urgency for preserving little bits scattered here and there. We treat our prairies in much the same way. Our hope is that through careful management of the land, we can still provide natural resources and jobs while expanding the habitat for threatened and endangered species. The way the Enviros and the Industry go at it, you'd think it was a strictly black-and-white issue, and it's not. There are still a lot of accommodations to be made by both parties in the interest of the Greater Good.

Another important aspect that is often overlooked is connectivity. A 20-acre parcel of never-been-cut trees as an island in thousands of acres of second- and third-growth commercial forest isn't doing anybody any good. It's land lost to both ecological value (via isolation and degradation) and to commercial value (in that them old fatties can't be cut, and the land can't be planted over with young, vigorous trees) which serves more as a reminder that there is a very human disagreement regarding its use than as any kind of natural legacy. Cutting 2% of an ownership each year to maintain an arbitrary 50-year cycle is no better.

Also: an isolated old tree in an otherwise young stand does not old-growth make. Shelterwood and seed-tree harvests are not old-growth in spite of the presence of remnants of earlier stands left within them. The species composition at all levels, from beneath the soil to above the canopy, is quite different.

Everybody involved in this (very human) issue need to be prepared to give up a bit of their ideals in order to reach some mutually-acceptable solution. We're not gonna "un-exist" humanity, nor are we gonna "re-exist" extinct species or communities.

 

[Oldtimer]

My friend owns a plot on a small lake here in NH that has a Black Gum tree the biologists say is well over 400 years old. Somewhere else, secret, there is a patch of true "old growth" forest here in NH that is supposed to be the same today as it was before the white man arrived...the location is not revealed to keep it from being trampled by "eco-lovers".

 

[madhatte]

the location is not revealed to keep it from being trampled by "eco-lovers".

Bet I could find it in an hour or less using Google Earth. Same goes for the "secret groves" of Redwoods. Point is, "Old-Growth" is a human construct and not the result of natural processes.

 

[Oldtimer]

Bet I could find it in an hour or less using Google Earth. Same goes for the "secret groves" of Redwoods. Point is, "Old-Growth" is a human construct and not the result of natural processes.

Go ahead and try. I will be very surprised if you can differentiate it from the rest of the forests here.

 

[madhatte]

OK, this is just a preliminary overview, but I've found a few places, particularly in the NE corner of the state, where I see that the conditions exist which suggest historic isolation: no road access, unbridged river boundary, no evidence of recent cuts, and, most importantly, a whole bunch of different shades of green, which indicates a good species diversity. Unfortunately, the quality of the airphoto coverage in these areas is poor -- I'm guessing about 1M resolution -- so measuring individual crown widths is impossible. Also, all 3 of the latest coverages were flown in the fall. This is OK, because the leaf-off imagery can show more of the structure of a crown, but it can also falsely overstate mortality patches; it's very hard to tell the difference between a tree with no leaves because it's dead from one with no leaves because it's winter. I don't know the land so the best I can do is add up the pieces I see, but I can see quite a lot. Finding the exact patch you're talking about may be a trick, but I can certainly see similar ones easily. Now I'm going to bump south some and see if the coverage isn't of higher quality in more populated areas.

EDIT: ah, the Jun 2010 coverage in the center of the state is much better-quality. Found a likely looking patch west of a place called Stinson Lake that meets the above requirements, with a bonus of a mid-slope swamp which would make the place a hassle to log (and most certainly illegal today). The size, shape, and colors of the crowns suggest a good mix of species, which is a sure sign of a more mature stand.

EDIT 2: Glacial cirque SW of Mt Washington looks likely, too. Poor airphoto coverage, tho.

 

[funky sawman]

Ole Madhatte, I swear this guy is a walking encylopedia of trees, What Einstein was to physics, Madhatte is to forests.

 

[madhatte]

Thanks, man! Good to see you, too. You should swing by more often!

 

[Oldtimer]

The NE corner is timber company land, and I have ridden snowmobile to boundry pond...trust me, it's been cut before.
It very well could be in the WMNF near Mt. Washington, but that whole area was raped and burned in the late 19th and early 20th centurys. It's why the MWNF was created, to make sure it didn't happen again. There are probably a few small impossible to log spots that escaped the wildfires.

I think I recall the piece I had in mind being privately held. I know it was being kept secret.

 

[RandyMac]

My friend owns a plot on a small lake here in NH that has a Black Gum tree the biologists say is well over 400 years old. Somewhere else, secret, there is a patch of true "old growth" forest here in NH that is supposed to be the same today as it was before the white man arrived...the location is not revealed to keep it from being trampled by "eco-lovers".

I hope it stays hidden. Some glory seeking jackass like Sillet will put up road signs and post GPS co-ordinates to prove he "discovered" it.

 

[JOE.G]

I read quite a bit about how Old Growth wood is better then new growth wood, DO you guys notice that?

 

[madhatte]

There are probably a few small impossible to log spots that escaped the wildfires.

Yeh, I can see that. Not a whole lot of folk do work that isn't gonna pay.

 

[Humptulips]

All this talk about old growth characteristics is I think a little off the point of the original question.
When you are talking about wood I think it would all come down to grain count. Finer grain wood is generally better so it follows old growth would be better the second growth.
Use to have something we called bastard growth which was basically some pretty nice sized timber but fast growing so coarse grain.

 

[RandyMac]

clear all heart vertical grain.
If the Wolverines and savages leave me alone, I'll shoot some pics of OG DF and some bastid growth timbers.