opinion on hazard tree assessment

[rbtree]

Good points by treeseer and Scott Baker.

Spruce is a light wood, not exceptionally strong. The foliage is dense and heavy. Thus spruce are prone to trunk failure..as well as complete windthrow. However, that tree appears to have been standing relatively alone for years and thus should have developed good reaction wood and root strength, to conteract the prevailing winds.

Asssuming that crack is minor, as it appears to be, I'd keep the tree and thin the upper canopy by 40%. While crown reduction would be more effective, it is unsightly.

 

[(WLL)]

if the tree does stay i think it would be a good canadate for lightning protection. if it were my house the tree would go and i would replant with some more safe and atractive trees. imo it looks dangerous and id get more sleep on them windy nights.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Are you aware that there are laws against picking on abused juveniles?

Why are you bending over backwards to rationalize killing this pubescent teen?

It's not a person, it's a tree. A nice tree, but just a tree. So far from equating to the value of a human life that to even CONSIDER keeping one that threatens human life is unthinkable to decent people.

Talking about animals and even PLANTS as if they were on the level of human life simply shows how little such people value human life.

Not to mention common sense.


And an estimate of a 2 foot miss is with a tree that size is, to a reasonable mind, an estimate of a likely hit.

 

[nytreeman]

To even contemplate saving this tree would in my opinion be absurd!:jawdrop:
I sure as hell wouldn't want it leaning towards my house!

 

[BC WetCoast]

Frankly, I'm a little disappointed in the 'professionalism' displayed by some on this board. It points to the need for more education needed by people in the industry.

I understand that there will be differences of opinion on whether this tree is safe, but "it scares me to think of a leaning tree over a house" is not the professional way to evaluate this tree. I wonder if that is not the sales technique utilized.

In my opinion this tree should not be removed, and here is the logic behind my opinion:
- this tree was probably originally a forest tree, however, it has not been a forest tree in a very long time. Judging by the architecture of the house, I would say the subdivision was built in the '80's so the tree has been exposed for at least 20 years. My reading of the research indicates that within 6 years of exposure, a forest growing tree becomes as windfirm as an open grown tree.
- If this tree has be exposed for the past ~20 years and has stayed upright, then what has changed in it's root system to increase the probability of uprooting. I don't see anything. So the probability of uprooting is the same this year as it was last year.
- the probability of a mid stem snap. Has this changed due to the crack? Maybe. Need to determine the cause of the crack. If it is just a frost crack, caused by a sudden cold snap, then there will be no change in the probability of a stem snap. If the crack is caused by internal wood shearing due to unusual bending forces (and possible heart rot), then the probability rises and removal should be considered. But this cannot be determined without some form of internal test (increment bore, resistograph).

The tree that Greenleaf removed from his yard. Although we don't know many of the details of it, my big concern with forked spruce is the tendency for one of the top stems to peel off.

If we are going to move the professionalism of arboriculture beyond that of just removal artists, then we need to educate ourselves to be able to read the signs and symptoms exhibited by the tree and surrounds and make recommendations and suggestions based on sound logic and science.

Just because you can climb, doesn't mean you're an arborist.

 

[clearance]

Frankly, I'm a little disappointed in the 'professionalism' displayed by some on this board. It points to the need for more education needed by people in the industry.


If we are going to move the professionalism of arboriculture beyond that of just removal artists,

Just because you can climb, doesn't mean you're an arborist.

Now this, is the freakin' thing cut down yet, WTF is the holdup?

I can climb, I am a utility arborist, certified, a recognized trade in this province, unlike an I.S.A. certified arborist, who has no trade standing whatsoever. Trade, like a plumber, a lineman, a heavy duty mechanic, someone who has proven they can do the work, not a textbook hero, person with a good short term memory. That being said, there are ISA certified guys who can climb, and climb very well, but unless they have taken the training I have, and are certified, they cannot do my job.

"Removal artist", is that a complement or a slur? Hazard tree removal around powerlines, now that is the real deal, in my opinion. Flirting with disaster, especially when you have to cut down p.o.s. trees that should have been put to death long ago. Many ISA guys do nice work, but it ain't the same, I mean where are the powerlines in a park or someones yard?

I have seen my share of trees that failed, ripping down the powerline, or smashing a house. Hindsight they say is 20 20. When in doubt, take it out.

 

[BC WetCoast]

Now this, is the freakin' thing cut down yet, WTF is the holdup?

I can climb, I am a utility arborist, certified, a recognized trade in this province, unlike an I.S.A. certified arborist, who has no trade standing whatsoever. Trade, like a plumber, a lineman, a heavy duty mechanic, someone who has proven they can do the work, not a textbook hero, person with a good short term memory. That being said, there are ISA certified guys who can climb, and climb very well, but unless they have taken the training I have, and are certified, they cannot do my job.

"Removal artist", is that a complement or a slur? Hazard tree removal around powerlines, now that is the real deal, in my opinion. Flirting with disaster, especially when you have to cut down p.o.s. trees that should have been put to death long ago. Many ISA guys do nice work, but it ain't the same, I mean where are the powerlines in a park or someones yard?

I have seen my share of trees that failed, ripping down the powerline, or smashing a house. Hindsight they say is 20 20. When in doubt, take it out.

A plumber is not a mechanical engineer, a lineman not an electrical/power system engineer, hence a utility arborist is not a certified arborist. They have different roles to play. While a utility arborist, is definitely knowledgeable in the care of trees around powerlines:
From Industry Training Authority :
“Utility Arborist” means a person who undertakes any work required to prune or clear vegetation in proximity* to energized electrical equipment, structures and conductors or who in the course of utility line clearing operations, prunes, falls or removes trees which could come into contract with energized power lines.
Nowhere on the ITA website, under training content, is there any mention of hazard tree assessment and determination.

So, while I have no doubt about your skills as a climber and your ability to do tree work around powerlines, unless you have taken additional training in hazard tree assessments, being an utility arborist alone doesn't mean you have the knowledge to back up your opinion.

BTW, BC is in the process of instituting trade qualifications for residential tree workers.

According to the City of Coquitlam and other municipalities, an arborist is ONLY someone certified by the ISA.
http://e-civic.coquitlam.ca/cybercedms/getdoc.asp?doc=587610
Page 1 - definitions

City of Burnaby, only a certified arborist can prepare reports relating to the health assessment and the need to remove trees for the issuing of a tree cutting permit.
http://burnaby.fileprosite.com/contentengine/launch.asp

Before we get back into the old Certified arborists are full of cra*; no they aren't; yes they are arguments, remember opinions are like azzh*)es, everybody has one. However, the key is to back up the opinion with clear logic.

 

[treeseer]

Frankly, I'm a little disappointed in the 'professionalism' displayed by some on this board. It points to the need for more education needed by people in the industry.

I understand that there will be differences of opinion on whether this tree is safe, but "it scares me to think of a leaning tree over a house" is not the professional way to evaluate this tree. I wonder if that is not the sales technique utilized.

In my opinion this tree should not be removed, and here is the logic behind my opinion:
- this tree was probably originally a forest tree, however, it has not been a forest tree in a very long time. Judging by the architecture of the house, I would say the subdivision was built in the '80's so the tree has been exposed for at least 20 years. My reading of the research indicates that within 6 years of exposure, a forest growing tree becomes as windfirm as an open grown tree.
- If this tree has be exposed for the past ~20 years and has stayed upright, then what has changed in it's root system to increase the probability of uprooting. I don't see anything. So the probability of uprooting is the same this year as it was last year.
- the probability of a mid stem snap. Has this changed due to the crack? Maybe. Need to determine the cause of the crack. If it is just a frost crack, caused by a sudden cold snap, then there will be no change in the probability of a stem snap. If the crack is caused by internal wood shearing due to unusual bending forces (and possible heart rot), then the probability rises and removal should be considered. But this cannot be determined without some form of internal test (increment bore, resistograph).

The tree that Greenleaf removed from his yard. Although we don't know many of the details of it, my big concern with forked spruce is the tendency for one of the top stems to peel off.

If we are going to move the professionalism of arboriculture beyond that of just removal artists, then we need to educate ourselves to be able to read the signs and symptoms exhibited by the tree and surrounds and make recommendations and suggestions based on sound logic and science.

Just because you can climb, doesn't mean you're an arborist.

That's all true, but "Need to determine the cause of the crack.... But this cannot be determined without some form of internal test (increment bore, resistograph)."

Wouldn't a mallet give an idea of the shape of and therefore the cause of the crack, and the associated risk?

 

[BC WetCoast]

That's all true, but "Need to determine the cause of the crack.... But this cannot be determined without some form of internal test (increment bore, resistograph)."

Wouldn't a mallet give an idea of the shape of and therefore the cause of the crack, and the associated risk?

Good point that I failed to mention.

 

[clearance]

A plumber is not a mechanical engineer, a lineman not an electrical/power system engineer, hence a utility arborist is not a certified arborist. They have different roles to play. While a utility arborist, is definitely knowledgeable in the care of trees around powerlines:
From Industry Training Authority :
“Utility Arborist” means a person who undertakes any work required to prune or clear vegetation in proximity* to energized electrical equipment, structures and conductors or who in the course of utility line clearing operations, prunes, falls or removes trees which could come into contract with energized power lines.
Nowhere on the ITA website, under training content, is there any mention of hazard tree assessment and determination.

So, while I have no doubt about your skills as a climber and your ability to do tree work around powerlines, unless you have taken additional training in hazard tree assessments, being an utility arborist alone doesn't mean you have the knowledge to back up your opinion.

BTW, BC is in the process of instituting trade qualifications for residential tree workers.

According to the City of Coquitlam and other municipalities, an arborist is ONLY someone certified by the ISA.
http://e-civic.coquitlam.ca/cybercedms/getdoc.asp?doc=587610
Page 1 - definitions

City of Burnaby, only a certified arborist can prepare reports relating to the health assessment and the need to remove trees for the issuing of a tree cutting permit.
http://burnaby.fileprosite.com/contentengine/launch.asp

Before we get back into the old Certified arborists are full of cra*; no they aren't; yes they are arguments, remember opinions are like azzh*)es, everybody has one. However, the key is to back up the opinion with clear logic.

Thank you, yes, I guess you are right, legally speaking. And so it goes. The WCB backed danger tree assesor course is of two days in length, with a test following. The ISA utility specialist is granted to someone who is in the ISA, who has worked in some way around power (only slashing or chipping here in B.C. as far as real work goes) for a while, then they take a multiple choice test.

Now, who is the better danger tree assesor, someone who has never ran a saw, never worn caulks, but has the ticket, or a faller who has worked on the coast for 20 years? The faller, because if he wasn't good at assesing danger trees he would be underground. But he hasn't taken the course.

So a utility guy, who has worked around power and bucked trees off the lines and roads after storms, who has cut down thousands of trees deemed to be hazardous by arborists working for Hydro has no standing?

Way I see it, the course is for the desk jockeys, those who drive the shiny white pickups. I would like to take it, but it really helps those who don't have practical experience the most.

Now back to the old arborist deal, and its meaning, ok, fine, only ISA certification is allowed in decision making by some municipalities here. All that means is that they have to be ISA certified, a smart 12 year old can get ISA certified, so, it is there to impress the unknowing public, provide legitimacy, provide an illusion in some cases. "You can be a truck driver one week and an arborist the next"

 

[treeseer]

clearance, I agree with most of what you say, but I am not sure that field experience always equips a risk assessor better than a test. The competent assessor has both field learning and book learning.

 

[treemandan]

clearance, I agree with most of what you say, but I am not sure that field experience always equips a risk assessor better than a test. The competent assessor has both field learning and book learning.

But all it really takes is someone with some common sense sometimes. Say goodbye and replant a japanese maple, can't go wrong there, just don't forget to add 13 yards of mulch to it every year.
Do people actually get paid to think about things like this? Good thing I don't have anyone like that bossing me around. And people say I think to much.

 

[nytreeman]

That sounds responsible. I hope that you pointed out the lack of defects. Most of the calls here for removal are coming not from risk assessors but from removal specialists/salesmen, so they are worth what they cost.

LMAO

 

[hammerlogging]

Clearance-
Now, who is the better danger tree assesor, someone who has never ran a saw, never worn caulks, but has the ticket, or a faller who has worked on the coast for 20 years? The faller, because if he wasn't good at assesing danger trees he would be underground. But he hasn't taken the course.

Clearance-
Now back to the old arborist deal, and its meaning, ok, fine, only ISA certification is allowed in decision making by some municipalities here. All that means is that they have to be ISA certified, a smart 12 year old can get ISA certified, so, it is there to impress the unknowing public, provide legitimacy, provide an illusion in some cases. "You can be a truck driver one week and an arborist the next"

Hammer say:
Now, I totally agree with you. totally. Especially about how people with zero experience can be certified. But, unfortunately, this sort of evaluation (yours) qualifies as merely anecdotal. Sorry, cause my heart agrees with you, my common sense agrees with you, and it may not be fair, but objectivity, reducing all our combined knowledge, experience, common sense, and good judgement to quantifiable details makes it science. taking the anecdotal and making it scientific makes the knowledge transferrable across people, regions and languages. Damn, cause I sure prefer the anecdotal, the romantic, I hate it when I have to make myself wrong.

 

[Specimen Tree]

It may just be the picture, but does the tree not have a symmetry to the trunk flare opposite the house? Girdling root? Root rot? I'd excavate that portion of the root system a bit to confirm.

 

[capetrees]

anecdotal this, risk assessment that, climbers versus arborists, blah blah blah ...

Bottom line the tree is out of character for the area. The other tall trees in the area have been removed and lower deciduous trees are present. It had a good life, provided shade when needed but on the other hand, it created piles of pine needles, sapped the cars parked below it and now is leaning toward the house which is far more valuable than the tree. Pay the minimal amount to take it down compared to the huge number and the inconvenience of removing it from the living room some stormy night.

 

[hammerlogging]

oh yeah, the point... I'd remove it. Without any of the science, based on common sense, but I bet Clearance, mine, and so many others common sense reflects the science anyhow, at least a very high percentage of teh time. Just discussing the merits of cetain decision making processes.

 

[clearance]

Clearance-
Now, who is the better danger tree assesor, someone who has never ran a saw, never worn caulks, but has the ticket, or a faller who has worked on the coast for 20 years? The faller, because if he wasn't good at assesing danger trees he would be underground. But he hasn't taken the course.

Clearance-
Now back to the old arborist deal, and its meaning, ok, fine, only ISA certification is allowed in decision making by some municipalities here. All that means is that they have to be ISA certified, a smart 12 year old can get ISA certified, so, it is there to impress the unknowing public, provide legitimacy, provide an illusion in some cases. "You can be a truck driver one week and an arborist the next"

Hammer say:
Now, I totally agree with you. totally. Especially about how people with zero experience can be certified. But, unfortunately, this sort of evaluation (yours) qualifies as merely anecdotal. Sorry, cause my heart agrees with you, my common sense agrees with you, and it may not be fair, but objectivity, reducing all our combined knowledge, experience, common sense, and good judgement to quantifiable details makes it science. taking the anecdotal and making it scientific makes the knowledge transferrable across people, regions and languages. Damn, cause I sure prefer the anecdotal, the romantic, I hate it when I have to make myself wrong.

Great post, and thank you. So it has come down to two camps. The killers and the the huggers. And a couple of compromisers.

I cut down trees for Hydro all the time, why do they spend money cutting down trees all the time? 'Cause they grow, thats the way it is, when they are a threat, be it to the line or life, saw it down.

Do you remember that movie Pulp Fiction? I love that part where buddy says "Do you know why I don't have a sign that says dead n****r storage"?
"No"
"Cause I ain't in the business of storing dead n***rs, thats why"

I ain't in the business of saving danger trees either.

 

[BC WetCoast]

anecdotal this, risk assessment that, climbers versus arborists, blah blah blah ...

Bottom line the tree is out of character for the area. The other tall trees in the area have been removed and lower deciduous trees are present. It had a good life, provided shade when needed but on the other hand, it created piles of pine needles, sapped the cars parked below it and now is leaning toward the house which is far more valuable than the tree. Pay the minimal amount to take it down compared to the huge number and the inconvenience of removing it from the living room some stormy night.

Can you find Golden BC on a map without an index? Do you know the local ecotype and native species for the area? How do you know that tree is out of character for the area? I hope it isn't based on a photo that shows two yards at best. My experience in small town BC is that you will find many comparable species within that subdivision.

It's a spruce tree. Not likely to create many piles of pine needles.

It is not NOW leaning toward the house. It leaned toward the house 20-30 years ago. It is now straightening out and has been for many years.

There is a lot of talk about common sense. You cannot let "common sense" justify a lazy decision. Common sense dictated that man couldn't go to the moon or that a radio couldn't be built small enough to fit in a car. I given my opinion that the tree as shown in the pictures isn't hazardous, with my logic and it hasn't been refuted. I've got 30 years in the tree biz, so my common sense is as valid as the next guys. But if someone can show me where my observation and logic is wrong, I'll admit that I'm wrong. I'm willing to learn.

What I'm trying to say is that as professionals, we should not be condemning a tree without sound scientific logic. And 'someday it's gonna fall on the living room' is NOT sound scientific logic. To me it's a hack's sales pitch. Following that logic, every tree in every municipality over 8' should be removed. Ludicrous.


Just for the edification of others, Golden is a town of about 5000 people, supported by a Lousiana Pacific OSB mill, tourism as it's on the TransCanada Hwy and as a maintenance hub for CP Rail. It also has lots of outdoor recreation, a great place to live but limited business opportunities. As the mill goes, the town goes. It's a blue collar town with no real 'elite' neighbourhoods.

It's about 2 hours drive in any direction to the next town of any size (>1000 pop).

 

[hammerlogging]

Pretty funny clearance.

BC, my intention was to suggest that technically your methodology is correct and that your conclusions are there for more valid.
Is the saying, "do as I say, not as I do"? I don't have the science of this kind to evaluate, haven't gotten to that methodology yet. But, based on reputation, experience, and so forth, folks like clearance and I are hopefully still providing a service to the community and individuals.