Oregonians, we (normal people) need to be heard too.

[Burvol]

This is a much more constructive argument than "hey, you wipe your ass with paper, right?!?"

To go back 120 years and look at the recorded figures for numbers of acres burned and the propensity by topography and fuel type, you'll see that catastrophic fire in dominant overstory forest types is rapidly increasing.

One factor a lot of people leave out of the equation is the use of Anthropogenic fire by native Americans up through the early 20th century. The natives knew when and where to burn, and in some ways they had better fire management practices than the modern white man. Suppression of fire and the importation of foreign disease and insects has led to massive fuels build-up in modern forests. What's the answer? Mechanical fuels reduction (i.e. logging) and the re-introduction of low-intensity fire to the ecosystem (in most forest types).

Well excuse me Jacob. I forgot your the wise old sage here in the logging forum. Please don't think of me as a caveman, one with a college degree. I guess you want to reason with the people, I have little desire to do much more of that. I have have reasoned and reasoned and defended logging till I'm blue in the face. It doesn't work with extremists. Sorry, it doesn't. These are the people who are beyond reasoning. Sometimes the basic, bottom lines are the ones that matter the most. I understand your point, and know where your coiming from, but please don't stab at me personally, when I'm ####ing pissed about my livliehood here. Thanks.

 

[slowp]

I feel evil, but whenever I have to take a group out, I pounce on the most extreme one and ask her to please explain what is meant by, restoration. She won't get specific. These folks are trained in what to say and what works. They have talking points, they are trained in how to be arrested, you'll sometimes find workshops listed on their websites. I went to an Earth First recruiting meeting back in 1990 and was told to leave saws alone but go try to monkey wrench every feller buncher we found, because don't you know, THEY RIP GIANT REDWOODS OUT OF THE GROUND ROOTS AND ALL. I never saw that machine! AND THEY ARE OWNED BY EVIL GIANT CORPORATIONS.
About then I coudn't contain myself and started laughing and was asked to leave. I was ready to, that floor was hard to sit on.

Sounds and looks like that group is a bunch of college kids who have not yet been crushed by the fist of doom. Unfortunately, they get the publicity and the reporters don't know anything about forestry ooops natural resources either. Maybe they can get jobs as arborists when they grow up because they know how to climb.

 

[forestryworks]

This is a much more constructive argument than "hey, you wipe your ass with paper, right?!?"

To go back 120 years and look at the recorded figures for numbers of acres burned and the propensity by topography and fuel type, you'll see that catastrophic fire in dominant overstory forest types is rapidly increasing.

One factor a lot of people leave out of the equation is the use of Anthropogenic fire by native Americans up through the early 20th century. The natives knew when and where to burn, and in some ways they had better fire management practices than the modern white man. Suppression of fire and the importation of foreign disease and insects has led to massive fuels build-up in modern forests. What's the answer? Mechanical fuels reduction (i.e. logging) and the re-introduction of low-intensity fire to the ecosystem (in most forest types).

good point

I feel evil, but whenever I have to take a group out, I pounce on the most extreme one and ask her to please explain what is meant by, restoration. She won't get specific. These folks are trained in what to say and what works. They have talking points, they are trained in how to be arrested, you'll sometimes find workshops listed on their websites. I went to an Earth First recruiting meeting back in 1990 and was told to leave saws alone but go try to monkey wrench every feller buncher we found, because don't you know, THEY RIP GIANT REDWOODS OUT OF THE GROUND ROOTS AND ALL. I never saw that machine! AND THEY ARE OWNED BY EVIL GIANT CORPORATIONS.
About then I coudn't contain myself and started laughing and was asked to leave. I was ready to, that floor was hard to sit on.

Sounds and looks like that group is a bunch of college kids who have not yet been crushed by the fist of doom. Unfortunately, they get the publicity and the reporters don't know anything about forestry ooops natural resources either. Maybe they can get jobs as arborists when they grow up because they know how to climb.

haha

 

[Jacob J.]

Well excuse me Jacob. I forgot your the wise old sage here in the logging forum. Please don't think of me as a caveman, one with a college degree. I guess you want to reason with the people, I have little desire to do much more of that. I have have reasoned and reasoned and defended logging till I'm blue in the face. It doesn't work with extremists. Sorry, it doesn't. These are the people who are beyond reasoning. Sometimes the basic, bottom lines are the ones that matter the most. I understand your point, and know where your coiming from, but please don't stab at me personally, when I'm ####ing pissed about my livliehood here. Thanks.

I didn't stab at you, if you read through my post you'll see I'm pro-logging and re-introduction of fire into the ecosytem (both as a contract timber cutter and government fire manager myself). My point is, the whole argument about wood products consumerism is moot- everyone uses wood products.

You don't need to waste your time arguing with extremists, you're not going to turn the tide by trying to convince a few people here and there. You will turn the tide however, by continuing to do things that you're probably already doing:

1.- Harvest timber products in a conscientious, safe, efficient manner.

2.- Present yourself as a professional and act accordingly.

3.- Seek alternatives to wasteful and unnecessarily dangerous situations and practices.

4.- Educate people who don't know of or have an insight into our industry. (That doesn't mean via TV programs that over-dramatize what goes on in the woods).

A clean logging sale whether it's clear-cut, commercial thinning, or a matrix will do a lot to convince the laymen and people who are on the fence about the wood products industry.

 

[Jacob J.]

I feel evil, but whenever I have to take a group out, I pounce on the most extreme one and ask her to please explain what is meant by, restoration. She won't get specific. These folks are trained in what to say and what works. They have talking points, they are trained in how to be arrested, you'll sometimes find workshops listed on their websites. I went to an Earth First recruiting meeting back in 1990 and was told to leave saws alone but go try to monkey wrench every feller buncher we found, because don't you know, THEY RIP GIANT REDWOODS OUT OF THE GROUND ROOTS AND ALL. I never saw that machine! AND THEY ARE OWNED BY EVIL GIANT CORPORATIONS.
About then I coudn't contain myself and started laughing and was asked to leave. I was ready to, that floor was hard to sit on.

Sounds and looks like that group is a bunch of college kids who have not yet been crushed by the fist of doom. Unfortunately, they get the publicity and the reporters don't know anything about forestry ooops natural resources either. Maybe they can get jobs as arborists when they grow up because they know how to climb.

This is it, exactly. Like training a dog to roll-over.

 

[mile9socounty]

If yall need another person to show up at the Capitol. Count me in. I ain't got nothing better to do now. I agree with you Jacob about the fuel density in our forests. Hell I can personally vouch from some of the fires I've been on and units we have thinned/fuels reduction.

 

[smokechase II]

May I suggest

"One lady was totally convinced the 2009 digital TV converter box switch-over was a conspiracy by the government to listen in on people and there were listening devices in each "converter box". It took me an hour to explain to her why this was not so and why this was not technically possible. (Basically you can buy these for cash and they would have no idea who bought which unit. And there are too many people involved with the manufacture of these units to keep such a secret.)"

When confronted by paranoia.

Encourage it.

If a logger and a crazy lady glaring at each othewr can be entertaining. Take a step further and tell her later that the same parent company that is logging over 60% of the NW Forests today is also producing the convertor boxes.

Hey, it doesn't have to be true. Just wind 'em up.

 

[Mherriford]

"One lady was totally convinced the 2009 digital TV converter box switch-over was a conspiracy by the government to listen in on people and there were listening devices in each "converter box". It took me an hour to explain to her why this was not so and why this was not technically possible. (Basically you can buy these for cash and they would have no idea who bought which unit. And there are too many people involved with the manufacture of these units to keep such a secret.)"

When confronted by paranoia.

Encourage it.

If a logger and a crazy lady glaring at each othewr can be entertaining. Take a step further and tell her later that the same parent company that is logging over 60% of the NW Forests today is also producing the convertor boxes.

Hey, it doesn't have to be true. Just wind 'em up.

This

 

[ropensaddle]

LOLOL, Another observation, look what the handles of those signs are made out of. You talk about a waste of resources

The whole sign is a wood product minus paint and ink!

 

[Bushler]

If you really want to crank them up....I tell them I've applied for a whale harvest permit. I have a Highly Migratory Species Permit, with a permit for harpoon (true). I go on to tell them I'd like their support in getting the Californial Gray Whale off the endangered species list so we can start harvesting them again.

Usually good for a death threat or two.

Watch the Whale Wars on discovery tomorow night, I'm rootin' for the Japs!

 

[Gologit]

No worries Burvol, fire seasons the past 5 years have been worse than ever. The Green Movement is gonna bite themsleves. The fuel in our forests are more dense than ever. It won't be long and all of our precious resources will be black.
Maybe then they will realize that Mother Nature is a garden that does indeed need to be weeded and maintained in order to prosper.

Well said.

 

[Burvol]

I guess I should apologize to you publicy as well Jacob, I appreciate your response to my apology in my PM. I am no way here to make people mad or fight with others (especially loggers). I just have had too much in terms of the current mindset here in my part of Oregon. People just seem to be absoluty adament against logging...what ever the cost may be...for all of us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSEaHyzbqTA
These folks are in Carolina, but I have actually seen this sort of thing happen around here!!! As a kid I remember more times than I can count people chaining themselves to trees, gates, spiking trees, ect, when the "movement" started gaining ground here. Mean while, yes...most do live in a house framed with Oregon Douglas Fir, and do wipe their asses with pulp wood. You can't have it both ways, the world is not Burger King. I've seen more forest meadows trashed with garbage, human fecal matter, diapers, and beer cans than ones not...after "earthy gatherings".

 

[slowp]

I'm fighting the battle on the treehugger site. It is a "hiking" site but somebody will find out there is going to be a timber sale or LOGGING in an area and will post it and try to get others to stop it just because they have a view there or a favorite walk or just don't like logging. It gets pretty stupid.
I'm trying to get a guy to tell me just what in his mind, rehabilitation consists of and what kind of a harvest method would be acceptable to him. No answer yet. Usually, if you pin them down with such questions, they can't answer.

Then they whine about how bad the forest roads are.

 

[Jacob J.]

People just seem to be absoluty adament against logging...what ever the cost may be...for all of us.

I'm trying to get a guy to tell me just what in his mind, rehabilitation consists of and what kind of a harvest method would be acceptable to him. No answer yet. Usually, if you pin them down with such questions, they can't answer.

That's my biggest peeve right there. I've cut on sides that were being protested (One of the more famous was the Paw timber sale) and I've chatted with many environmentalists. When I mention such things as the suppression of fire, importation of foreign disease and insects, and the accumulation of fuels in the understory- not a one of them could proffer me an alternative to mechanical fuels reduction (i.e. logging) and the re-introduction of low-intensity fire to the ecosystem.

There's a handful of educated pro-environmentals, but typically they're not at the helm of these radical eco-groups. I've encountered more of them in conservation positions with state and federal governments than I have anywhere else.

A good blogger site to visit for educated forestry and pro-timber viewpoints is Mike Dubrasich's site on "SOS Forests"- http://westinstenv.org/sosf/

 

[forestryworks]

That's my biggest peeve right there. I've cut on sides that were being protested (One of the more famous was the Paw timber sale) and I've chatted with many environmentalists. When I mention such things as the suppression of fire, importation of foreign disease and insects, and the accumulation of fuels in the understory- not a one of them could proffer me an alternative to mechanical fuels reduction (i.e. logging) and the re-introduction of low-intensity fire to the ecosystem.

There's a handful of educated pro-environmentals, but typically they're not at the helm of these radical eco-groups. I've encountered more of them in conservation positions with state and federal governments than I have anywhere else.

A good blogger site to visit for educated forestry and pro-timber viewpoints is Mike Dubrasich's site on "SOS Forests"- http://westinstenv.org/sosf/

thanks for the link - very interesting read

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

idiots, plain and simple

Yes, "useful idiots".

If you are not familiar with the term, you should look into it. It explains a lot.