Outdoor wood stoves

[JimmyWood]

Royall Wood Boiler

Hey, going to be installing my new Royall and I have NO CLUE What Im doing.
So Im hoping to find some help here.
In a nutshell. Right now I run 2 radiant zones through seperate Propane Hot water Heaters.
I want to run into those so they serve as backup should my wood boiler go out. I also want to run my hot water with it and I have an electric hot water heater now.
So far, I figure 20 Plate and 40 Plate exchangers--and beyond that I really dont know how I should approach hookup. I`m sure there plenty of things I should be aware of, and I am not.
Any help or thoughts will be appreciated.

Jim
(in NH)

 

[tawilson]

I'm going to try to build my own outdoor wood boiler. I already have an oil fired boiler system in my house. I'm using a cast iron radiator as the coil in the wood stove. I've got a welded stainless firebox and galvanized outer shell, with 3" of insulation on order. I've heard of it being done, but actually don't know anyone who's done it. We'll see. Not a lot of investment, except time, if it doesn't work. I plan on running it as a loop thru my existing boiler, possibly putting it thru a couple more radiatiors in my basement, which is unheated. It stays around 60-65 degrees in there, so a little more heat would help keep my downstairs floors warmer. Plus, hopefully the mass of them will act as storage. It'll mean changing over to a higher glycol percentage. I've heard that glycol is harder to heat, not sure how that will affect things. Anybody got any comments, good or bad idea, whatever, I'd welcome them. I plan on adding controls, an aquastat to control the circulating pump and control valve, damper control on the firebox, and possibly a low water cutoff at the woodstove, even tho my oil fired boiler has one. Oh, and definetly a relief valve near the woodstove. Maybe a flow control switch, so if the pump fails, the stove shuts down. I'll also need a larger expansion tank.

 

[woodnovice]

Being new at this I have read w/ much interest all of the posts and have not heard any comments on the Woodmaster.I am considering the heatmor and aqua-therm now after reading the info from all of you.Just curious on the woodmaster though.I was looking at the woodmaster 4400 prior to this and was wondering how it stacked up to the others.Thanks

 

[jokers]

I'm going to try to build my own outdoor wood boiler.......I've heard of it being done, but actually don't know anyone who's done it. We'll see. Not a lot of investment, except time, if it doesn't work.

Hi Tom, I`ve done it, pm me your phone # and I`ll give you a call sometime soon. You aren`t originally from the Camden/Annsville area by any chance, are you?

I've heard that glycol is harder to heat, not sure how that will affect things.

Glycol use is reputed to reduce thermal efficiency by up to 60% if mixed at a ratio of 1:1. You may not even need glycol, it`s not uncommon to run without it as long as you can drain the outdoor boiler fairly easily, if need be.

You also do not want to run glycol in your sytem if it is open to your existing boiler. It`s not a good idea to rely on the check valve on the auto make-up water line to prevent a backflow into your well. The auto make ups operate on differential pressure, meaning that if the boiler water level gets low and the pressure drops, water will flow into the boiler. If you have a power outage and your potable water baldder tank is drawn down below about 12 psig, boiler water can flow into your drinking water. I`m sure that you don`t want even propylene glycol, which is considered non-toxic, in your well.

You should also consider making your outdoor boiler non-pressurized. True boilers and pressure vessels are tough for the shadetree builder to produce. Safety has to be considered.

Russ

 

[Newfie]

Hey, going to be installing my new Royall and I have NO CLUE What Im doing.
So Im hoping to find some help here.
In a nutshell. Right now I run 2 radiant zones through seperate Propane Hot water Heaters.
I want to run into those so they serve as backup should my wood boiler go out. I also want to run my hot water with it and I have an electric hot water heater now.
So far, I figure 20 Plate and 40 Plate exchangers--and beyond that I really dont know how I should approach hookup. I`m sure there plenty of things I should be aware of, and I am not.
Any help or thoughts will be appreciated.

Jim
(in NH)

UHHHH, gee lets see, maybe hire a licensed heating and plumbing contractor? Nah that would be silly and safe!

 

[Johnboy]

I've monkeyed with hydronic quite a bit. Starting with simple garage/hw heater system to advanced gas boiler, zones & domestic hw. These systems can be very tricky. When done right, they are a joy. When done wrong, they can be a real pain.

There are "pros" around here that can't get it right.

Right now, I'm in the process of tying my house system (munchkin boiler) and my garage system (propane hot water heater) to a hot water stove in my barn with hopes to have heat in all 3 buildings. Terms like "head pressure", "closely spaced tees" and "short cycling" have dominated the conversations. I had the company that initially installed the munchkin come back and redo the main loop. When initially installed, it worked so-so and they wanted to come back and re-do it free-of-charge so they could learn more about the systems (after attending a class). When they left, it was even more messed up. My zones are starving and the boiler is short-cycling.

Anyway, I know everything they did wrong and am just going to fix it myself. I have a good diagram from the outfit we bought the wood stove from. He has 20 years of hydronic heat experience.

You're trying to tie your systems together and will have your hands full. You said you wanted to keep the existing hot water tanks. You need to decide of you're going to fill the tanks with hot water or bypass them untill you need them. On my garage system, with the lp hwh, I plan to create a bypass, and I will pbbly never use the hwh since now, tied together, the munchkin in the house will be the backup for the entire system. Beyond that, my wood stove has electric heat option which I may hook up for temporary backup as well.

I think if you can find someone with a long experience in hydronics, you might find the money well spent to have them at the very least diagram everything for you. Sizing pumps, pipe and such can be tricky. Typical problems encountered are zone starvation, air-locks and such. A good design can help avoid such problems.

Anyway, I'm kind of long-winded today, mostly because I'm a little stiff and sore from horsing the new wood-stove into the barn.

Cheers and good luck.
Johnboy

 

[tawilson]

Johnboy,
What did you get for a hot water stove?

 

[Johnboy]

I went with a Garn 1500. You can look at some of my previous posts in this thread to see why. Main reasons are storage, efficiency & clean burning. I'll post pictures soon.

Cheers
jb

 

[woodnovice]

I hadn't seen any pros or cons on my inquiry on the merits or lack of on the Woodmaster.Any opinions would be appreciated.

 

[bnew]

I have an old taylor unit and would not think of an indoor unit again. I have grown up burning wood indoors and wold not go back. If they say you get what you pay for is true I will get a better one in the future because this old 1200 dollar one is doing great for me.

 

[Sinbad_36]

Soft Water Myths

Heatmor uses fire brick. There is a course right above the sand bed in the bottom, right where all the hottest coals would build up and rest against the sides. Wood fired boilers probably don`t need fire brick because the metal shell of the fire box, which is the inner wall of the water jacket, doesn`t get hot enough to oxidize from the flames. Especially if it`s stainless. I don`t advocate carbon steel for any boiler because of corrosion, but to each their own. Well water is notorious for being hard, meaning it has alot of corrosive minerals and elements in it. Softened water is just as bad with the salt present. Russ

Just a quick note on your softened water comment. Soft water does not contain enough salt to even be classified as a low soduim food source (check fda site)... The salt is used to clean the resin bed and is then flushed out the drain... However if you are filling your boiler with salt water ensure that you do it just after a complete regen on you softener. This will insure that you do not suck dirty (brine) into your unit.. regen first, then fill your system. The soft water does not contain any salt, minerals or iron. for a system that is not industry standard, has a 25 year warranty and guarantees that you will not get any salt in your piping or system check out Haguewater.com....

 

[Spanky1]

We just installed a Heatmor 200 last week. Far more than we bargained for. Worth the extra money. Ive never burned wood or had a stove or anything. But at $2000/year in L.P. it's an easy decision.

Oh, and there isn't smoke to speak of. There was some at start up when the installers put a bunch of cardboard and stuff in, but thats it. Even when it shuts down after reaching temp, it's great.

Thanks to this forum for great info.
Spanky

 

[jokers]

Just a quick note on your softened water comment. Soft water does not contain enough salt to even be classified as a low soduim food source (check fda site)

To qualify as a low sodium food source, I`m sure that water would still allow a comparatively high level of salt compared to pure water for the purpose of corrosion protection. I`m involved in processing electronics grade "pure water", ~ .052µmho/cm and we don`t use any acid or base regenerated demins or polishers because of the salts. We use ultrasonic regeneration that knocks the crud off the beads. In the water process stream we use mechanical filtration, GAC(granular activated carbon primarily for TOC removal) reverse osmosis filters(gross soluble salt removal) coupled with the aforemention demins and polishers as well as electrostatic and ultraviolet(for breaking organic bonds) purification as necessary to lower or eliminate conductive (salts or colloidal metals) corrosion products.

This statement seems both contradictory

... The salt is used to clean the resin bed and is then flushed out the drain... However if you are filling your boiler with salt water...

and untrue

The soft water does not contain any salt, minerals or iron.

.

for a system that is not industry standard, has a 25 year warranty and guarantees that you will not get any salt in your piping or system check out Haguewater.com....

This gaurantee that you so unabashedly use as your sales pitch has fine print. Do not assume that because of the nature of this forum that the people here are uneducated. IMO, I`m the equivalent of a pimple on the arse of many really intelligent posters here.

Russ

 

[tawilson]

If I do a regen, then use the water as usually for a day, then fill the boiler, wouldn't that flush any leftover salt out of the system and still be softened water? Or, maybe I should try to find a premixed 50/50 glycol solution. I know you can buy car antifreeze that way.

 

[jokers]

If I do a regen, then use the water as usually for a day, then fill the boiler, wouldn't that flush any leftover salt out of the system and still be softened water? glycol solution.

That`s probably as good as you are going to get Tom. The truth is that even unsoftened water often has a significant quantity of salt. Your idea of flushing your softener through a day`s worth of use is a good idea in that it doesn`t rely on the typical timed backwash that softeners have to rinse down the resin. The fact of the mater is that on the scale that residential water is treated, it`s normally a case of "this for that" hopefully leaving you with less troublesome contaminants than you started with.

I apologize if my response to Sinbad may have offended any regulars here. His thinly veiled pitch to sell Hague water systems using half truths and ommissions really tipped me over. Notice that he came in to make his one and only post on 9/29/05 and apparently didn`t bother to visit the rest of the site. He probably found this thread in the first place by Googling "water softeners". Sorry, but spamming a board with sales pitches irks me.

Russ

 

[bnew]

Jokers, I think you were in the right to do so.The only thing he had to say was about water softners and then tried to sell them at the end of his thread. I also noticed the guy above saying he has a wood boiler that produces no smoke.Sound like he is phishing for people to inquire.

 

[Spanky1]

OK. I'm not a dealer. I said "no smoke to speak of". IMHO the smoke that comes out is far short of the catastrophic lung disorders that people are complaining about in the forums. I've seen more smoke from my wife's cooking! (only sometimes)

Keep in mind we have only been running a week. From filling it up to the top, to only a few pieces at a time, doesn't seem to make a difference on the smoke. "There just AINT that much".

Spanky

 

[django]

Wow. I havent posted or looked at this thread in some time. Got kinda big.
Since I built mine, I have had countless people ask me about building their own, or which one I would buy if I was going to buy one. I have literature on nearly every one out there. Kind of a hobby of mine. One thing has to be clear: They are all giant smoking wood pigs. I knew that going in, and It's not a problem where I live. GARN is the only clean unit I know of. As long as you store energy in the form of unburnt wood, you will have a dirty burn. Period.
I have no brand loyalty, as I built mine. As stated previously, most sales literature is pure crap. Good to be back.
Django

 

[slabracing]

Woodmaster 4400

Wow what a thread!
I wish I had found AS before Dec. 2005
I have woodmaster 4400 that I installed in Oct.2004 and have been pretty happy with it so far.
Last Friday was interesting though
My wife called me at work to say there was no hot water and no heat at about 4pm and that the stove door had all the paint burned off!?
Went home early to take a look and found that creosote had backed up into the air opening in the door,started on fire and burned up the fan,wires,paint,and all related things.
NOT happy!
Fired up the gas furnace and water heater in the basement,and went to my dealer(luckily only 2mi. away).He had a fan for me,but was shocked about the fire.He then told me about not being a Woodmaster dealer anymore because of not being treated well by the company in regards to warranty work.
Also informed me that about 10 of the stoves he did about the same time as mine had a problem with creosote building up in the doors causing the fan motor to gum up and quit.This was due to a limited number of units made with the bottom of the inner door baffle cut short to leave a space of about
3/4" open for more airflow to the firebox.He went to his truck and gave me a piece of steel already cut and drilled to cover this space and block that build up from happening.What a PITA.
I still like my stove but this sucked

 

[bwalker]

I looked at Woodmaster, but I wasnt impressed with them at all.