Pearls To Swine

[murphy4trees]

The gunning marks thread got a little side tracked so I Am starting a new thread on the open faced notch.... This is show and tell from a job we did yesterday.

85' fir in a fairly tight backyard... the final stick was 28'..

Here's the notch.. How long do you think that took with a 440 and 20" bar?

 

[murphy4trees]

Another shot of the notch..... hinge is several inches longer than the bar.... No worries about bypass here boys!

 

[murphy4trees]

An establishing shot of the scene... hardly the giant notch pictured in MM's diagram...GET REAL MIKE! And everybody else too, that took you seriously..

 

[murphy4trees]

Her she comes.

 

[NeTree]

But murph... that's not an open face notch.

 

[murphy4trees]

There she went.... I was aiming just to clear the Jap maple... steering away from the house... the tip of the log jumped a couple of fett left on the bounce 'cause the cushion log wasn't centerred

 

[murphy4trees]

ANd the butt stays on the stump still attached....

What would you call it NE... it ain't conventional ...

And we already had this debate on what to call it about a month ago.... anyone whom would argue that it isn't an open face because they think and open face is a conventional stacked on a humboldt is misinformed.... Open your mind or not as you like!

 

[NeTree]

Dan, I'd call it a very wide conventional.

Nice pics, BTW.

 

[murphy4trees]

A close up of the hinge fibers....

I cut notches your way for over 20 years... doing all the falling for my company.... And there is nothing you can say or do to make me go back!!!!

END OF STORY!

 

[NeTree]

What do you mean, "my way"?

I use all kinds of notches; all depends on what I'm trying to accomplish.

 

[NeTree]

In this case, cutting the wide & shallow conventional kept the hinge intact, even as the trunk hit the ground.

Excellent for when you can't have the butt-end bouncing around.



Notice the two notch cuts meet without overlap. This is desireable.

 

[The Best GM]

that notch is point less. If the hindge cant close than its enough. C'mon. Please, what is the difference, if the wood cannot meet than why go further, there is stone cold no point!! You are not thinking about this one murph.

 

[NeTree]

Actually, if the purpose is maximum hinge retention throughout the arc of fall, then Dan's notch is spot-on.

 

[ray benson]

Nice explanation and pics Daniel. Your notch looks the same as
this Open Face Notch.
http://www.forestapps.com/tips/notch/notch.htm
Regards
Ray

 

[SilverBlue]

Yes, good job Daniel, I am inclined to categorize the notch as conventional too, although perhaps we should name it Murphy’s notch?? And by the way, I like the way you tuck your chaps under your jeans

 

[rahtreelimbs]

Originally posted by The Best GM
that notch is point less. If the hindge cant close than its enough. C'mon. Please, what is the difference, if the wood cannot meet than why go further, there is stone cold no point!! You are not thinking about this one murph.

 

[a_lopa]

open face sounds fine to me,what made you slightly re-adjust the top cut?

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Oink, Oink; cast more....

i think that the point is that any knotch over ~45 is an open face, not just 45 up, 45 down. That the sweep can still be more than 45, just by opening the top wider; optioning to open the bottom only likewise would be a lot toughter.

Some say it wastes wood at the thickest, most valuable end for lumber. But, yet the Murph has shown taking it farther down the stem than a regular open face, giving more length, as the flat to the ground knotch still has the acclaimed open face properties.

If the tree stood absoulutely straight vertical at 0, then fell still connected on the stump to flat horizontal at 90, then (or for back leaner) we would need 90. Any lean towards target lessens that. so might need only 80, 70, 60 degrees sweep in hinge is needed for completely ushering to ground (still attatched, never became a free agent)

If there is any width to the head forward, that will hit ground, perhaps first, perhaps even further narrowing the hinge arc needed, or even safe.

Being able to take this wideface lower than standard wideface, a line pull from high would now increase it's leverage by one more unit of the dropped height of the hinge from this technique. Also that line pull would be pulling on a slightly lowered C.o.B.; increasing the leverage even more i think. The increased leverage, helps force more of those wood fibre soldiers at first flexing, increasing the armies strength, giving it a chance against this awesome task!

Eric, i think it is a good exercise in how much control you can issue, softening all hits; also arching horizontally in trees would be closer at hand with understanding how to machine and craft to this level of support.







A few stix i have been able to float low(or low horizontal on a downed beast); i've gone up to, slid a heavy equipment trailer next to; took a 36" (usually)bar to the other side, and slanted, self loaded the pieces down on to the trailer without knotching. Theorizing once again that the most pulling force is down, so lightening my load by serving to the side of the most direct pull of gravity, rather straight into her grip. Then also using her force to work the turn (turn takes extra force); so disapating some of that force more; then the percentage of weight pulling sideways, isn't pulling down directly etc. for softer landings/placemeants. And indirect hits, that further dissipate force more by sliding across steel, rather than wood trailer bed. The second piece etc. can be easier to load if used right, the deck is kinda higher on trailer now and a high pivot provided possibly. So you don't have to sweat bringing the next piece down as far and or just get C.o.B. over pivot to catch whatever other length is given. Lines on the far end can also be used to force the strenght of the hinge.

A few times they didn't want the apprentice loader back there all of a sudden, even on ply wood, but truck and trailer was okay. Once the trailer got stuck, disconnected, ran truck around, used it to get another piece of wood for weight, used truck to quickly drag some weight towards back, put piece right on back for guys to sit on, nose floats, especially with them on it, pull trailer out from firm ground, with rope extension cord to carry the force to trailer! Actually during one monsoon i got good at that! But this time it happened with the self loading Murphy float deal.

Humility is a lot easier to take Bach.

Orrrrrrrrrr something like that,
:alien:

Anutha 5 star thread i think!

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Edit:NE the facecuts machined by technician not to intersect or "Buried Kerf Dutchman" (?)(immediately closes hinge at back of faces); but i think that such a fault in the design would not allow this far over of a bend; especically on any non lean side. For this trick i think we can see, we need good fiber strength, flexability, open face, no obstruction in face (dutch), and strong leveraged pull.

i think that most dutchmans are accidental as you point out; and that a lot of the dutched forces take away from the open face effect. The open face by definition is trying to get more travel on hinge unimpeded. A dutchman would be defined by an early impedimeant to face. So the Dutchman goes to close early, countering some or all of the open face effect, the smaller face will rule i think quite logically. Even in a very wide face, crossed cuts can allow the actual closing you are trying to prevent.

i split the hairs of daffynitions between "Kerf Dutch" and "Buried Kerf Dutch", between just a 1 line kerf straght in, or a kerf buried purposefully or in crossed cuts at the back of another wider face respectively. Because the effect is different, even though the both about close immediately, a kerf closes faster and closes at the outer circumfrence of the tree(or limb in snap cut) to push back with more leverage than one that closes inside the hinge, with less levearage against hinge (buried).

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Daniel, when we decide what kind of notch to use, first we decide at what point we want the branch to tear loose. Then we make the angle of the notch match where you want the tree to tear loose, if at all. If we don't want it to tear loose then it becomes necessary to have a wide notch. It makes sense to me to make it at least 90 degrees, because the tree falls 90 degrees, even though as your picture shows, it is possible to have the tree hang on with less. By making it less though, you run the risk of it closing breaking loose sooner.
Stay with me now, this next sentence is important.
If the floor cut is level, you cannot open the notch to 90 degrees. (For arguments sake I will exclude heavy leaners, crooked trunks, and steep grades.)

You asked, “How long do you think that took with a 440 and 20" bar?”
From the looks of the several notch scraps on the ground, I’d say it took some time and cutting. This brings up the point that it is harder and more time consuming to make the MGGAN. A notch with two 45-degree cuts, one up, one down, can do a better job because it’s more open, and it will be a lot less cutting.
When you’re up in a tree doing hundreds of cuts with a small saw on wood that is sometimes bigger, do you still do these types of cuts?

Then you wrote,” I cut notches your way for over 20 years... doing all the falling for my company.... And there is nothing you can say or do to make me go back!!!!”
Wow, how MasterBlaster like. You sound as closed minded as the great MB when talking about his Tautline hitch! (Assuming you meant “my way”)

In this case you’re arguing an indefensible case, just like I always do!