Pearls To Swine

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Mike Maas
Daniel, In this case you’re arguing an indefensible case, just like I always do!

This thread sounds like "Gems examined by other gemologists", rather that pearlsbeforeswine.

A clam may have opened and revealed some lustrous white orbs, but others (nonporcine) generate their own kind of jewels.

Anyone think about sending this stuff to SAF's Journal of Forestry? Yo no comprende

 

[rborist1]

:Eye:

 

[NeTree]

Hey, he's got a hardhat with hearing and face protection...

three times more gear than most people use.

 

[BigJohn]

Can anyone guess as to why all the paint is burnt off the the edges of that new saw? Makeing a good notch starts with a well maintained saw. Maybe even before that a clear and concious head. Its not just one thing one trick that makes our job easier or each task. Its all the the little things and attention to detail. Details in the saw, the area around the tree, your stance, what the feller is wearing and his comfort, line placement in the tree, what your dropping the spar on, the men pulling line and when they pull if they are even pulling at all.

How tight should a chain be?....

Most everyone wants to know "what" will make them better. The one thing we can all learn and apply it everything we do is detail and organization in what we do and repeating this over and over.

 

[NeTree]

Maybe that's an older bar of a different length he switches off with?

I still think Daniel did a nice job.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i believe that is an orchestration of polished parts there BigJohn, a better crafted machine and circumstance. Dent's title speaks of a Procedural Approach.

i use logs like Murph did, sometimes placing branches underneath, top spread out same force over bigger area; and break some branches too.

Usually there is an abundance of such materials, sometimes i trestle a log for more footprint to spread force out in, especially to keep it off of something else. It also floats the spar off the ground, harder to hit ground on bucking, but might roll something underneath so cut spar doesn't have to sink so low to rest, less pressure on cut. If any lil'thing the stump end catch could be farther farther out(for me), so i could balance more across it, taking weight off each end evenly, for less pinching force,as one end of the spar balalsts the one you are cutting, then swith ends.

On felling i might put a "mechanical fuse" across the trestles of the bridge, or do same to leading branches. Also makes the pulling weight of the leading branches useful counter balance to back branches and lead, without the digging into the ground. Then the mechanical fuse function i figure, dissipates what ever force it takes to snap the fuse, 'blow it', removing that much of the trees force by matching it. Like a matress or a spring absorbs dynamic force.

 

[rborist1]

:Eye:

 

[Lumberjack]

For most of my felling I have converted to Daniel's way.

I was thinkin that makin a cut like that takes too much time, but it isnt bad, IMO.

One job i did was 7 pine trees that could be felled. I used that notch to hold the butt while I limbed the trees on the ground, one side at a time. With the butts attached I didnt have to worry about the log rollin when the limbs came off. When I had it limbed I used the log as an anchor. 7 for 7 the stayed on the stump, and I didnt make a huge angle, maybe 65-70 degrees. Pine is more flexible than most tho, 90 degrees would be ideal, but not neccessary.

I gave Daniel's method a fair chance a month ago, and I like it.

I would say that you made the ultra clean notch in 45 seconds to a min. With a dulling chain on my 044 with a 20" bar, I made my notches in under a min on trunks 24" at the cut.

When i need to clear a log over an obstical, i use a shallow notch so i can "launch" it. I sent some bigish logs over a fence. The biggest was 3' average diameter and 12' long. I was 15' vertically over the fence, and 7-8' away. I cleared it with an ease.

Notch for the situation.

I have used Daniel's notch for all my felling cuts, and also in the air for steerin limbs and such.

I like it!!

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

In air, might go for more than 90 degrees, of course i might drop control side of the floor out further than the lean side too...

 

[murphy4trees]

Valid point about the PPE... and that is the only pic of me doing ground cutting without them.... That was one of the only two ground cuts made on that job that day though that is No excuse and I appreciate all the encouragement that we share on this site, supporting ourselves to "do it right"....

Mike,
You say several things that are not supported by fact... You wrote "This brings up the point that it is harder and more time consuming to make the MGGAN. A notch with two 45-degree cuts, one up, one down, can do a better job because it’s more open, and it will be a lot less cutting."

Harder and more time consuming???? Have you even tried it??
A lot less cutting... How would you know if you haven't tried...
MGGAN works with gravity... The floor cut is much smaller, making up for most if not all of the size of the roof... and what the small floor doesn't make up for, not having to fight gravity does...
The reason I "know" you haven't tried the MGGAN is cause you wouldn't be spouting such nonsense if you had....

You said "I’d say it took some time and cutting.".... How much time... in seconds would you think it took? And how long would it take you to cut "your" notch on this tree?

For those reading this that might think Mike is making some valid points in this argument with me, may I point out that he's really not arguing with me.... I stand here on the shoulder of Mark Chisholm, two time ITCC winner, Tim Ard, logging instructor and as a student of "the game of logging" video series, produced by Weyerhouser... Professional loggers would just laugh at you Mike for making the above statements... I probably should be laughing too!

Another thing you said "If the floor cut is level, you cannot open the notch to 90 degrees."... Again its clear that you wouldn't make such a statement if you had any experience with this technique... It would have taken me less than 10 seconds to open that notch to 90* and I could have easily openned it even further if needed...

So whose mind isn't open... This reminds me of the taperred hinge thread that Spidy started... you argued so passionately against it, yet you never tried it... Again I know that because you wouldn't argue against it if you had... And I asked you repeatedly to try it in the field and report back with your findings... never heard a word back... And again your arguments there flew in the face of industry giants, Doug Dent and Jerry Beranek...

And after all that here's something that will be nearly impossible to argue against... When we were going back and forth on this in the gunning thread... Treesco took your side of the argument under his new alias.... Need I say More?

And Big Jon,
The reason the paint is toast on that saw is cause I was using it to flush cut stumps in Va. after the hurricane... 7 days a week for a couple months, cutting through dirt and mud and standing water. Nasty work, mostly with carbide chains... I usually get several years out of a bar as I don't do firewood.... most everything big gets cut longer than 8' for pick up... The 28" bar on the 460, that I bought with the saw pictured, lasted less than two months in Va..

And lastly Mike,
I do use the same style cut when aloft, just much smaller... I took some pics of the notches used to block down the same tree...

 

[murphy4trees]

'nother

 

[murphy4trees]

hat trick

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Daniel, show me a picture or drawing of a notch with a level floor cut AND open to 90 degrees or greater.

As to the triangle hinge, I fully admit I was wrong, without arguing the point I never would have learned what i was doing. I've always used triangle hinges intuitively and never thought about the mechanics involved.

Saying I never tried to cut a notch like yours is silly, I been doing tree work full time for twenty something years, I can't think of too many thing I haven't done.

Perhaps the drwing below will show what I mean about not being able to do a 90 degree notch with a level floor cut. It shows how much less cutting there is.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Wait a minute, look what I found.
It's one of Daniel's notches. He does drop the floor angle!
Picture right out of this.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Originally posted by ray benson
Nice explanation and pics Daniel. Your notch looks the same as
this Open Face Notch.
http://www.forestapps.com/tips/notch/notch.htm
Regards
Ray

Ray did you happen to notice the picture in that link is contrary to the writing?
He says an open face notch is 70 to 90 degrees and then shows a notch open to about 50 degrees. He also says to make the floor cut upward at a slight angle and the picture shows a level cut.
Remember that a tree falls about 90 degrees. To keep the notch from closing before the tree is on the ground, our notch must be at least 90 degrees.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Yeewwwwwwwww cull that a good pic.......(ooops sorry wrong T-read)...

MM; i always figured some of the topics were of unnamed things, some people would fall into natur-ally monitoring output and adjusting to the more powerful pockets chasing and sensing more power with some variation here and there. But i think, that naming them, knowing why they work, gives a name to call them out by, a mechanics to watch and polish; understanding how to assemble different of these polishings for more power. There is a stall to inertia for starting any motion/chaning direction. If you don't confidentally know that you are proceding scientifically in the write direction, the stall of inertia, cna be taken for non compliance and ya go back to olde ways, unless you know to confident-ally, press on with what you are doing. IMLHO.

i too play devil's advocate, and draw stuff out about things; and you had said you used tapered hinge in the air in a small slip up anyway!!

Once again, i don't think that the full 90 degrees is needed, and if ya make it all the way -15 degrees; most, most of the time, you will have done real well; in any case with no step dutching, it will be going wherever it is hovering over at that point.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

You had to bring leaners, hills and crooked trunks up.

If you want the spar to hold on all the way to the ground, it's a straight spar, on level ground, and you don't want it to disconnect from the stump, what angle notch would you use?

Answer: Greater than 90 degrees.

Don't forget the stump holds the trunk up a foot or two, that actually makes the angle of fall greater than 90 degrees. And if the lean is away from the direction of fall that will add even more. And if the trunk is crooked, that could even add more. And if you're felling downhill, that will even add more.

Let's see that drawing of a level floor cut AND an notch open to 120 degrees.

 

[SilverBlue]

Carl has me envisioning him launching logs over a fence ‘Dukes of hazard’ style LOL.
Mike 90 degrees or more with a flat bottom cut? Now you’re trying to gloat that you’re right. I still consider a conventional notch to be any flat base cut with an angle up to 70 degrees, and an open face cut to have an angled bottom, just makes things easier.

 

[BigJohn]

I must agree with you there Brian I too sometimes have to filter through Kens use of words. I don't how he does it. It's not the understanding of of the individual words but the combination of them. I would say he has a brilliant mind and we're just not on his level. Ken I think have you great things to speak about but please for us shuffle the words in such a way so Brian and I can learn too. Chisholm personaly told me he has a bit of trouble makeing sense of it well. So we are not alone.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

In my previous description of self loading; i left out a point of safety, as the weight of the spar is taken off, you might have to cut more of the hinge so it doesn't sit back up! Even as you are slanting down, going slowly with cut, turning onto trailer, the leveraged load will change as part of spar tilts down from most leveraged position. Ev en now, you might have to stop before tearoff and cut some more of hinge so it won't pull up!

MM i already kinda feel that is covered in the lowness of Murph's cuts , and length of spar. Kinda figured that was coming; it is obviously part of the scenario quite fairly; as hills, leans, crooked trunks, raising ground angle with bridges etc. but i ain't here to argue your case for ya!!

i also think that a slight shave of the front of the lower face would give a fair amount more sweep, not quite on the hinge, but shearing, extending the last vestigial of direction and speed control longer.

i haven't tried many like this, but do not toss it aside. i think Murph has shown quite a fine sweep controlled. If he can freeze it a few degrees from home, then has to seperate with zero initial speed; the impact would be much less than a wider face, constant movement i would think. For the formulae for the force of impact would be 1/2 the weight X speed squared; making especially after a lil beginning run, speed the more important thing to watch IMLHO.

"In Country"(climbing); i might look for more than 90 degrees; but start with a conventional, and drop the floor from where the meeting of the facecuts (most leveraged point of push/pull) to/almost to the front of the bottom face on the non-lean/control side. This would allow forward movement/velocity gain; then push away from lean as that side closed and hinge on control side was pulling at same time. To offset head lean, or steer down crooked path of least resistance between obstachles.



Brian, sorry if after MM's starting a fight(it is his fault) i got loosened up to my real kidding self more, kinda use it to cool brain from the throes of seriousness, positive energy, own mental exercise in free association etc.; a positive underlying current. i find that more better than some dis-positions; and a thin veil over my anemic efforts, as the wizard's curtain i guess...... i would hope that any doubt of dis-ability to re-torte; would be quelled by now. i hated English with a passion, the power i was forcefed to command it; i satirically twist around as payback on itself; pairallelling many of my other solutions at re-cycling the force agaisnt itself, that i try to present. As in the side current i am even illustrating that in my play. For these things too, to me are connected.



Orrrrrrrrr something like that
:alien:

Edit-BigJ your mailbox is fuller than mine ya slouch!