Pine Bark Beetle

[Brmorgan]

Bowen now, but looking to buy something up in Bella Coola as well. I also worked in the Hazeltons for a while. As one of the Westar veeps said to me a long time ago - god's country! Didn't appreciate it at the time, but I always seem to go back there when I get the chance. Same for North of Terrace and up west of the Dease lake area. Been most places in the world and I wouldn't trade this province for anything. I think there is more potential here in BC than anywhere else and there are still a lot of good people and room to be free!

How long ago were you up north there? I know a whole bunch of older guys that logged up in that area years ago, back in the 50s - 70s. I've only been through there once on the way to Alaska, but it is a nice area. Too much rain for me to live there though. Same story with Bella Coola.


The reason for Lodgepoles being all over the ground in spruce-dominated areas (at least around here) is that the ground is too wet in those areas and the root systems of the pines rot out quickly. They can't tolerate standing water for long periods of time like Spruces can.

8" is a fairly small Lodgepole. I've cut many around 2' for firewood and have seen them up to 3' come into town on trucks, though not often. They need just the right growing conditions to get to that size though.

 

[arbadacarba]

I was up there at the tail end,- early eighties. There was still some really nice wood coming through, but it was starting to be uneconomic because of distance. Thats when Stewart was growing as a raw log storage area. I still hate the idea of shipping raw logs overseas. Why can't we do the same as the Japanese and throw boom chain over the fir bundles to sink them when the market slows?

We put in the second link mill in the province ( Carnaby ). It was interesting, but a real mistake given the timing. In my opinion a bunch of small mobile specialty mills would be far better for the area. There's still some really good timber up there - use it for sash stock etc, not spaghetti ! It really distresses me to see what has happened in the Hazeltons. Beautiful area, beautiful people, but no sense of direction. On a more positive note there are some new initiatives happening that go around Indian Affairs and will bring back some pride.

Just so I'm not hijacking this thread, lodgepole /spruce stands are good. We pulled a lot of spruce clears at the Hazelton mill. Premium stuff and high$.
If you remove the lodgepole, space the spruce and interplant with whatever clear producing hardwood that grows in your area you may be able to eliminate the beetle over a generation and actually increase your total return. Also, don't ignore the possibility of using beetle killed wood as an architectural highlight. The Europeans have been doing this for a while and it looks pretty nice exposed and with a clear finish. Much more interesting for post and beam than some of the other woods. It's all a question of making your markets rather than letting your markets dictate the terms to you!

 

[sbhooper]

I hunt in Colorado and Wyoming and it is amazing what the beetles have done in just two years all through the mountains. If some of those areas ever light off, there will be some interesting fires. If they wanted to log those areas it would not matter because there just are not enough logging outfits anymore to get the wood before it rots anyway.

I was told that the beetles don't fly-they glide. If trees are cut back a fair distance around the beetle kill, it will slow the advance.

I think the best scenario is for state and federal agencies to start a controlled burn program in some of these area to hopefully burn it without total destruction.

 

[arbadacarba]

I hunt in Colorado and Wyoming and it is amazing what the beetles have done in just two years all through the mountains. If some of those areas ever light off, there will be some interesting fires. If they wanted to log those areas it would not matter because there just are not enough logging outfits anymore to get the wood before it rots anyway.

I was told that the beetles don't fly-they glide. If trees are cut back a fair distance around the beetle kill, it will slow the advance.

I think the best scenario is for state and federal agencies to start a controlled burn program in some of these area to hopefully burn it without total destruction.

Whats really frustrating is as soon as someone mentions something like that there's a good chance that you'll end up playing "count the idiots" as the proposition gets shot down. Be prepared to shake your head!

 

[sbhooper]

A lightning strike in the right place is going to be an armageddon in some places. Break out the marsh mellows and watch the tree huggers scream.

 

[Brmorgan]

The beetles can fly, but I'm not sure how far or how well. But I have been out cutting firewood a couple times when they've swarmed, and can sound almost like a cicada hatch. A few years ago before the problem really exploded around here, maybe 8 years or so, the trees beside all the major logging roadways leading west started dying. The beetles were jumping off the logging trucks on their way to town. I'm pretty sure this is what caused the explosion of the last few years, because it took decades for them to cross the few miles of the Coast Mountains. But once they were into the Lodgepole stands this side of the mountains where there is active logging, it only took a handful of years for them to make the ~150 mile journey east to the Fraser River.

 

[barrelroll]

I live in Grand county CO and I'm just waiting for it to go up in flames along with the western part of Rocky Mountain National Park. Everything is brown up here.

A pellet mill has opened up here to try and use up some of the beetle kill otherwise it's not moving much. There's always adds in the paper for free beetle kill.

An old timer told me the forest service used to sell the trees in an area with beetle kill with the understanding all the trees were fair game in the area that was sold but the logger had to take care of the beetle kill. After Clinton was in office and closed off the lands to logging is when the epidemic started.

 

[windthrown]

Wow, Estes Park? Dead? I used to have a GF that lived in Ward.

Amusing all that fuel that is just gonna go up in flames. Maybe build a giant mobile electric generator and tap it into the grid, and cut and burn the logs as you go, in a huge swath across the west. Or distill it into methnol.

Naw... it will just all go up in smoke, and then there will be all kinds of insane accusations and political fallout. No one will listen until AFTER the fact. Just like in San Diego. *sigh* Stupid politics; that is the problem with a democracy you see, because half the people are below average at everything.

 

[smokechase II]

History shows

"I live in Grand county CO and I'm just waiting for it to go up in flames along with the western part of Rocky Mountain National Park. Everything is brown up here."


Upon further review:

A year ago a paper came out where they looked back on beetle epidemics and large fire occurances throughout the West. It showed only a very slight increase in large fire acres in the beetle hit areas initially.

Where things get bad is when the trees fall over and create 'ladder fuels'.
That may be 8 - 15 years down the road and that is when the large fire 'up in flames/smoke' events happen.

=============

If you like to enjoy the fourth of July in winter I would suggest finding a day where there is a couple feet of snow on the ground but nothing in the trees, no wind at all, a somewhat scattered stand of live and dead LP and a dry day.
With a lighter get rid of those brown needles one tree at a time.

Caution; we have had wildfire events in a few feet of snow because the live trees are much dryer in the winter.

Other than that, man is it fun to walk up to a tree, spend a few seconds of your life that you don't want back, and make a 10 second one tree candle.

LP needles come off in about three years anyway, so this isn't an important fire risk treatment. That would be logging the dead and cleaning up the slash.

But it sure is fun. Yep yep.

 

[Brmorgan]

Man, if you got caught doing something like that up here you'd be spending some time in the crowbar hotel. I have done it though (once by accident, that was exciting!) and it is neat.

 

[windthrown]

=============

Caution; we have had wildfire events in a few feet of snow because the live trees are much dryer in the winter.

Yah, the trees are dormant then. I noticed that when living amung a huge stand of trees (several thousand acres of them) in the Tyee Geological Zone. When the conifers go dormant in December, the flooding begins. Two years ago we had 2 feet of rain in November. Hardly any flooding. Ground was already saturated from heavy rains in October, but little flooding. Come December, we had one foot of rain. Half the rain of November. Torrents of water came off the hillsides. Lots of flooding. December, January and early February were always the worst. By early March the trees are active again, and drawing up water, and the floods are held in check.

Good idea about burning standing snags in the snow. Like now. The live trees are going to be drawing up water and the dead snags will not. But of course, um, that would make just WAY too much sence. So it will never be done. Tree huggers would chain themselves to the dead snags. Or the Pine Bark Beetle Supporters would protest. Or the global warming advocates would say that you are releasing too much entropy and CO2 into the atmosphere.

 

[spencerhenry]

the pellet mill is in kremling, it is my understanding that YOU PAY to leave logs there, but right now they are only taking large logs. my guess is that if you pay to leave good saw timber, they can let it sit and sell it later when and if there is a market. intermountain resources takes in alot of lodgepole, and last i heard it was going for about $235/mbf. but currently they arent taking wood from independents, only their own crews. funny part is, i have had 2 logging contractors trying to sell me wood (i own a woodmizer), but the prices they want havent really dropped. everyone i talk to says there is no wood moving. one of the guys that called me got paid to clearcut 200+ acres (my buddy missed the bid) and still isnt dropping his price for the timber. but he called me trying to sell some. supply and demand. right now the only money around here is in private property (clean up jobs), or forest service make work projects. i have seen it in several papers now that the forest service is putting big money into beetle kill cleanup along forest service roads. now that is some work that i want. i keep checking the government sites to see when it is put out for bid, but none yet.

 

[barrelroll]

Wow, Estes Park? Dead? I used to have a GF that lived in Ward.

I'm on the other side of the divide from Estes, Estes hasn't gotten hit near as bad.

I don't think I'll try lighting up a dead lodge pole, they are real close together and the last thing I need to do is start my neighborhood up in flames.

This has been a really dry winter, very little snow, I don't know the last time I've had enough snow to plow and I live at 9,300'. I'm sure that won't help the fire situation this year.

As far as the pellet plant goes a log truck driver was telling me they weren't paying much at all for logs when they just opened this summer, I want to say $15 a ton they pick up, $20 a ton you deliver but I could be wrong on that.

Spencerhenry not sure where you are located but if you land a government contract and need some summer help let me know, I could use a summer job.