Pine Bark Beetle

[Brmorgan]

The Western forests, at least the northern ones, are already a writeoff statistically. The real challenge now is to get the bloody thing stopped in Alberta, Montana, Colorado, etc. on the East side of the Rockies. If that doesn't happen it will get into the Jackpines up here, and could eventually run east through the White pines and all the way down south-east into the Longleafs and others. Nobody originally thought that Ponderosas were in much danger. Oops.

I agree with the environmentalist problem. I can understand protesting virgin old-growth logging in many areas, but to protest destroying possibly a couple square miles of relatively young, fast-growing forest in order to eradicate a major pest?

 

[windthrown]

No market for lodgepole? As long as there's any market for studs & framing lumber, there's a market for lodgepole - it's about the best framing lumber you can find. Spruce isn't as strong, and Douglas Fir is too hard and is more difficult to work with.

Doug fir is a lot stronger wood, and because of that it is required for framing in most of the western US states (by code). It has been that way here since before my time. I would not say that it is any harder or more difficult to work with than pine, having built several houses myself. I would rather have a stick built house framed with Doug fir. Pine is good for furnature, door and window framing, paneling, flooring and a lot of other stuff though. They do use a lot of pine for framing houses in the southern US.

BUT... and the big BUT now is the economy here. Most mills here are shut or running on skelleton crews. House building has slowed to a crawl. Lodgepoles do not command much of a market value here in Oregon. Klamath is the only area where it is listed here, and they were paying $265/MBF for it in the 4th Q of 2008. That was less than half of what Doug fir was going for at the time.

Maybe we can get Obama to spend the money to harvest the Lodgepoles and sequester the carbon in them and sink them into the Pacific Ocean, beetles and all? Or have the big companies that dump CO2 into the atmosphere pay for the logging of the buggy pine trees and get the carbon credits for doing it? :monkey: Hey, may as well get some of the pork out of the current US administration. That may not solve Canada's problem though. Sadly they made the same mistake that then Governor Brown did in California when the Mediterranean fruit fly showed up down there. It would have been easy to spray a small area to begin with and get rid of them. But no.... he let it get out of hand, and they wound up spraying whole counties with malathion for millions, and it cost him the governor's seat in the next election.

 

[windthrown]

The whole story is even sadder. The government was willing to step in, had taken the initial steps, but was demonstrated against in Victoria and threatened with lawsuits by some of the environmentalists. I have no beefs with a lot of environmentalists, but ones such as this cause a huge amount of damage in the future while giving themselves pats on the back for some questionable acts in the present. Some of these idiots move from cause to cause without once taking responsibility for their actions. This is not environmentalism, it is self aggrandizement! ( C'mon D.S. stand up and take another bow.)

Similar thing happened in and around San Diego County, CA. But it was after the fact of the pine tree stands dying from beetle infestations. They had huge stands of dead pines down there. They wanted to log and clear them. BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOO! The tree huggers demanded that the dead trees stay in place for natural habitat and bio-eco-groovey-friendly-ness and all that. So they tied it up in court. So long in fact, that the stand was dead and dry and just waiting for a fire to come along, and come along it did. San Deigo county was ablaze for a good long time in one of the largest wildfires in California history.

Responsibility? :monkey: Did those environmental groups that tied those stands up in court take any responsibility, accountability, or anything else? No no no no no no no... its not the beetles or the environmentalists fault for the fires, its GLOBAL WARMING! Yes, blame something else! Global warming casued the beetles to survive longer in warmer climates, and thus kill the trees, and thus cause the fires.

 

[windthrown]

Just the point! If you are a real environmentalist you measure the pros and cons. Some of the best environmentalists I have met were out in the woods cutting trees all their lives. Some of the worst were highly educated in "environmental science" and had never left the proximities of the city except to protest in the summer. If somebody feeds you a line - call them on it immediately! If they can defend it -fine. If they can't, ignore them and tell everybody you know to ignore them too. We now have most of the western pine forests at risk because of a few educated idiots being catered to by weak-knees. We need synthesis, not hysteria!

Have to agree on that one. I consider myself an "environmentalist," and after 4 years of managing an 85 acre mixed-species tree stand, I believe that clear cutting is the best forest harvesting method that there is. No other method puts more boimass on the soil or grows as much biomass in as short a time. No other method sequesters more CO2 and creates a marketable product any better or faster. It also creates a 40-50 year habitat available for wildlife. I also have observed that old growth groves are typically in poor health, and not the best use of the forest land. I agree that a lot of old growth tracts should be preserved, like Bull of the Woods. However, I have seen the tree huggers demonstrate on and around some rather obscure 200 year old trees in west Douglas County that took me 3 hours just to find. OK, they were larger older stands of trees, but nothing that I would consider more valuable just because they were old trees. Similar sitation with several BLM tracts adjacent to the trees I managed. They should have been logged 20 years ago, but they are all still tied up in court. They stick out like old unkempt scragly stands now. Borken tops and half decayed trees with conks growing on them. They are all but dead. They will burn the fastest of any tracts if and when a fire rolls through there. The spotted owl must be preserved! So it can be naturally replaced by the barred owl.

 

[arbadacarba]

Right now we are going through the down cycle of hemlock in my area. Happens every forty to sixty years, and they are designed by nature to act as nurse trees for fir and cedar. Its amazing what sort of numbers some of the environmentalists come up with for their ages! This is undiluted B.S. and does nothing for the science of forest management. Lets all make sure we call it B.S. and let people who make patently false claims flounder. I'm also all for the woodlot system. Hard to get going, but, on average, nothing beats private ownership for ensuring the best for the land. Logging is a classic example of where the "tragedy of the commons" argument applies. Neither flat rate stumpage nor bonus bidding really addresses long term return of, and protection for, the land. I really am beginning to believe that adding western red alder into the rotation as a furniture/trim/flooring wood may be the saviour of the western forest industry.
If you can get carbon credits while they grow (from that environmental boondoggle!) so much the better.

 

[slowp]

if they would clearcut alot of those lodgepole and help a variety of trees get established, then the next time around it won't be so bad.

Lodgepole begats Lodgepole. We tried. That was the idea when leaving the other conifers. Lodgepole came back in naturally. I thinned and killed Lodgepole in my early days. I think we should have left it, then logged it. Lodgepole makes nice log houses. Now, with everybody talking about biomass, it seems the perfect tree for that. Grows easily and quickly. It gets no respect, until it burns.

 

[spencerhenry]

$265 a thousand? someone is paying that now? i dont think we ever got that much around here. doug fir doesnt even pay that much.

i was a builder for 21 years, doug-fir is only required by code in certain municipalities, and then usually only for structural timbers. for the last several years all heavy timbers have been spec'd as FOHC #1. for framing material, i would rather use lodgepole than hem-fir which is the only alternative to doug-fir around here. i always liked framing with doug-fir better. hem-fir warped badly, doesnt hold a nail, and is definitely not as strong.

 

[Brmorgan]

Right now we are going through the down cycle of hemlock in my area. Happens every forty to sixty years, and they are designed by nature to act as nurse trees for fir and cedar. Its amazing what sort of numbers some of the environmentalists come up with for their ages! This is undiluted B.S. and does nothing for the science of forest management. Lets all make sure we call it B.S. and let people who make patently false claims flounder. I'm also all for the woodlot system. Hard to get going, but, on average, nothing beats private ownership for ensuring the best for the land. Logging is a classic example of where the "tragedy of the commons" argument applies. Neither flat rate stumpage nor bonus bidding really addresses long term return of, and protection for, the land. I really am beginning to believe that adding western red alder into the rotation as a furniture/trim/flooring wood may be the saviour of the western forest industry.
If you can get carbon credits while they grow (from that environmental boondoggle!) so much the better.

Excuse me, you WANT the big timber companies to have control of our forests like the government wants to do? WTF? That could restrict public use of forest land to an insane degree. Say goodbye to cutting firewood on Crown land, and going fishing on any little patch of water you decide to. Private ownership of our forests ensures the best for the company's financial bottom line, nothing more. Profit takes precedence every time. I don't mind companies being in charge of the actual cutblocks they're cutting from, but the government wants to allot immense swaths of forest to individual companies, out of which they can decide what and where to cut. What they don't cut would still be under their control and they could dictate what can and cannot be done on that land. Maybe I'm being a bit paranoid, but I don't want to end up like some European countries like Germany, where there's no such thing as public land and you can't even go fishing unless you know someone who owns waterfront.

Regarding the hemlock die-off, sometimes they can appear to be all dying off even when they're not. Hemlock trees have a "drooping leader", that is, the top of the tree isn't straight and bends over so the flat needles are aligned to the sun. After they reach a certain size/age, the tops break off - if there is a large stand of trees about the same size/age, this can happen to multitudes of trees within a couple years of each other. At least it does in the mountains east of here.


slowp - we had the opposite problem up here. Years ago many of the mills were re-planting only Lodgepole on sites where it was not originally the dominant tree, because it grew to millable size the fastest. Now there are many re-planted cutblocks full of only little 25' tall lodgepole, and they're all dead from the beetle so they have to start back at square one again.

 

[clearance]

Brad, I have read a lot about the B.C. forest industry history. The Tree Farm License model has done much to ruin our forest productivity. And keep communities dependent. H.R. MacMilan was completly against TFLs, the timber should have always gone to the highest bidder.

What has happened is that the BC Forest Service has become a toy for the huge companies that control our forests, and persecutes the gyppos. They migt not own the land, but when you give people the endless right to log, there is little difference. Look into this, see how TFLs came to be.

 

[arbadacarba]

I definitely DON'T want large companies to be in control. What I would prefer is to see far more small well managed woodlots where the consideration is given to the long-run value of the resource. This might even increase the available amount of land for recreational use rather than decrease it as more could come from less area. It also would certainly give small mobile logging companies and individual loggers a more even break.

Regarding the hem, where I am the hems are simply falling over right now and aren't even any good for pulp. What they are good for is rotting on the forest floor and creating fertile seedbeds for the firs and cedars. Every time the wind comes up a few more snap off half way up and you can see the rot right where the snap occurs. Classic example of a decadent forest. The whole works was logged in the 1890's, again in the 30's again in 64, and should have been cleaned up once more about ten years ago. The stuff is so punky its not even any good for firewood, but people are still trying to save it all.

Sorry to get you worried!

 

[windthrown]

$265 a thousand? someone is paying that now? i dont think we ever got that much around here. doug fir doesnt even pay that much.

That's the pond price in Q4 of '08 from the ODF list in the Klamath basin. Had 7 quotes, so it was not a one-off number either:

http://oregon.gov/ODF/STATE_FORESTS/TIMBER_SALES/logP408.shtml

Doug fir this side of the Cascades commands a premium.

 

[clearance]

I definitely DON'T want large companies to be in control. What I would prefer is to see far more small well managed woodlots where the consideration is given to the long-run value of the resource. This might even increase the available amount of land for recreational use rather than decrease it as more could come from less area. It also would certainly give small mobile logging companies and individual loggers a more even break.

Regarding the hem, where I am the hems are simply falling over right now and aren't even any good for pulp. What they are good for is rotting on the forest floor and creating fertile seedbeds for the firs and cedars. Every time the wind comes up a few more snap off half way up and you can see the rot right where the snap occurs. Classic example of a decadent forest. The whole works was logged in the 1890's, again in the 30's again in 64, and should have been cleaned up once more about ten years ago. The stuff is so punky its not even any good for firewood, but people are still trying to save it all.

Sorry to get you worried!

Hemlock is ok for framing, as long as you nail it down good and it stays dry. D-fir is the best though. I have framed lots, and that being said, the very best framing wood is old growth from before WW 2. Clear, with no knots, very tight growth rings. The #2 now would have been left in the bush back then.

 

[arbadacarba]

I agree on the hem being OK for framing. Its also a lot better than D-fir for staining and painting as you have to seal the D-fir with shellac for even stain and to prevent sap weep. D-fir is definitely better for framing where the wood might become wet at times.

We used to run 4 separate times. Tops was D-fir, number two was H/F and third was S/P/F,last was the occasional cedar run. Of all the trees the one with the least durability was the spruce.

I have some of the reclaimed old growth fir on my floors. Eventually the resin solidifies and you end up with a beautiful,rock - hard surface. If I ever get large planks with not too much metal in them then I re-man them into something more valuable on my wood-mizer kilt

 

[Brmorgan]

I agree on the hem being OK for framing. Its also a lot better than D-fir for staining and painting as you have to seal the D-fir with shellac for even stain and to prevent sap weep. D-fir is definitely better for framing where the wood might become wet at times.

We used to run 4 separate times. Tops was D-fir, number two was H/F and third was S/P/F,last was the occasional cedar run. Of all the trees the one with the least durability was the spruce.

I have some of the reclaimed old growth fir on my floors. Eventually the resin solidifies and you end up with a beautiful,rock - hard surface. If I ever get large planks with not too much metal in them then I re-man them into something more valuable on my wood-mizer kilt

Old, dry Douglas Fir is hard enough to drive a nail into, I can't imagine Hemlock! My framing nailgun will bounce right back at me and leave the nail sticking out 1" if I happen to hit a good knot in DF. Don't get me wrong though, I've used it lots. I sure hated grading it at work though... You go home with sore wrists from flipping boards on a fir 2X6 run, especially when the boards are coming up to 120/min with only two gradermen. It's just that much heavier that it makes the difference when you're not used to it.

Hemlock is best for flooring and stair treads, because there is very little difference in hardness between the springwood and summerwood, so it wears very evenly. It can also be a beautiful cabinet wood, especially if it has a lot of mineral streaking. The mills around here pretty much quit cutting Hemlock at in recent years, because it's so much harder on saws and knives and is generally a lot more difficult to access.

I've been gradually collecting good Douglas Fir 1X6 pieces for my kitchen floor from the bigger logs I CSM. I need about 400' SQ of it, so it's taking a while to get enough really nice pieces.

 

[arbadacarba]

Time for a "when I was a lad" here. (Imagine the lumberjack song playing in the background)

When I was fifteen I worked a summer at Doman's Nanaimo Lumber mill on the Fraser River. When I wasn't doing cleanup at the bottom of a gang shute or wandering along open conveyers throwing slabs back into position so they could go through the chipper or up to the burner they had me pulling twenty foot 2x12 to 2x20 hem and fir on the green chain (no drop chutes or anything else, just a cant fulcrum.) Proud to say I went through the whole summer without once putting on women's clothing, suspenders or a bra!!! ( I did my darnedest to take some off though)

2x6 :censored::

 

[Brmorgan]

I hear ya man, I've done my share of heavy lifting on greenchains too, though I maxed out at 2X12X20. Actually the worst was rough & green literal 2X8 Douglas Fir that was going for Belgian export years ago. I never had to pile it on the chain but it was horrible to move around. With grading though it's not the sheer weight but the repetitive nature. Flipping 70 boards a minute has given me mild carpal tunnel syndrome over the last few years. The only time I sucked out and refused to work was when we had to work in -38°C four winters ago. After spending over 10 hours without feeling my fingers and toes, I told them if it was that cold the next night they'd be shorthanded. And it was. I wouldn't mind piling in the cold, at least you can move around and build up some body heat. But I was stuck just standing in one spot all night.

Where ya at, by the way?

 

[arbadacarba]

Bowen now, but looking to buy something up in Bella Coola as well. I also worked in the Hazeltons for a while. As one of the Westar veeps said to me a long time ago - god's country! Didn't appreciate it at the time, but I always seem to go back there when I get the chance. Same for North of Terrace and up west of the Dease lake area. Been most places in the world and I wouldn't trade this province for anything. I think there is more potential here in BC than anywhere else and there are still a lot of good people and room to be free!

 

[arbadacarba]

I wish I still had the picture, but one time we sent a shipload of lumber to Egypt because the Japanese tried the Northwest coal/ very difficultu routine on us. By the time it got there there was a 16 foot 2x6 on the top of one bundle with the two ends meeting in the center. Should have put a BC Homegrown sticker on it and charged extra!

 

[smokechase II]

Poor kid

"Im am still in high school and in our forestry class for the state forestry competition we have a land management event and its in the central part of Oregon and half of the land we are managing is invaded with pine bark beetles there is some dead trees but not a lot. Just wondering what is some ways to control this, we watched some videos on thinning. and juniper trees are starting to take over too."

==============

HS Climber:

I worked for the USFS south of Bend for nearly three decades.
A few thoughts:

This isn't a Walt Disney movie. Every tree wasn't meant to live forever. Lodgepole was meant to live fast and die.
Jack Pine succeeds by:
1) Being a hardy tree with regard to cold, (it often gets established in thickets and this allows other species to come in under its canopy because of some thermal cover),
2) Tolerating lots of moisture around its roots, LP does well in wetter meadows than many other species.
3) Reproduce like a newly formed religion after disturbances, (fire - logging -wars etc).

Silviculturists like to teach that if you thin out the beetle infestations you can minimize the impacts. The logic as stated earlier is:
Give a plant a reasonable increase in sunlight, nutrients and water and it will be healthier. It can then fight off insects and disease better.

However, I didn’t see much effectiveness with that in LP stands with regard to the MPB.

I’d recommend the removal of LP from areas has they get hit. Even if they aren’t dead or bug hit YET.

------------------

Try for a stand of mixed species if your site allows that. Perhaps plant other species that are not susceptible.
(That sounds great but often areas with LP will not readily support Ponderosa or other species.)


Lodgepole has a very thin bark that does not protect from fire as much as most other tree species. This is where fire controlled the LP populations the most. It's not that we shouldn't have LP out there. It's not just that with attempted fire removal we have built up fuel loadings.

===============

Fire was a controller of beetles and juniper. Mimic fire or use it.


{Interestingly, historical analysis shows that just after beetle outbreaks we have had only very slightly increased large fire activity. Where things get bad is 7-10 years down the road when all that mess falls over. Ladder fuels.}

 

[slowp]

I am delving back into my lodgepole memory. In the wetter areas, spruce grows pretty good with the lodgepole. But, as Smokechaser states, the lodgepole dies quickly--a silviculturist said there was a rule of 8s for lodgepole.
It lives well to 8 inches dbh, 80 years, and there's another 80 in there--basal area? When the spruce is prevalent, there is lodgepole jackstrawed all over the ground, making for bruised up legs, and excellent fuels for a fire. I think one area we marked for a timber sale, was thrown out because it was "roadless" (we drove in every day on jeep roads) and burned up in the Tripod Fire on the Okanogan.

The drier sites that were logged, as I stated earlier, seeded back in with lodgepole. On the Deschutes, they have been logging beetle kill or threatened trees and selling it, even recently. You might give somebody on that forest a call, because that is the area your paper is based on. They definitely sell wood for biomass and the slash also.