Pioneer P26 clutch melt?

[Morgan]

Hello

I hope you can see the pic

1978 Pioneer P26 I just got, previously belonged to my uncle

Same old story I am sure, I don't know jack about saws, first house, first woodstove, first winter with wood etc...

I got this saw as a backup to my new Stihl, and I liked it right away

I had hardly run the saw since getting it at Christmas

I was way out in the bush cutting a bit of firewood and the bar was acting like it was freezing up after sitting for a bit in the -20's C, getting really hard to start rolling again etc..

I thought the chain was getting oil, I could see red on the teeth in the bar groove

Did I have the chain to tight?

The chain just slowly stopped turning at all..I initally thought the saw had locked up for good, but I pulled the bar and it started right up

Thanks for your time

 

[crane]

does the clutch turn at all...as it sits in the picture??

 

[lawnmowertech37]

i happen to have a P26 in my storage shop that i picked and rescued from a salvage yard the saw still pulls over too i can take a picture if you want so you can see the shape its in im willing to part it out as a complete saw or parts off it

let me know if interested

thanks
calvin

 

[Morgan]

Yes it does spin freely by hand

but there is a dragging noise, and gouges left on the two pivot "ears" from the metal ring being all expanded and distorted, having started to chew things up

 

[Morgan]

Thanks for the info on parts..

I have a an ol' friend who is in his early eighties that ended up with the dregs of an old saw shop that closed in town

I might find what I need there

I was wondering what I did wrong..or was it mechanical failure

ususally if I am the mechanic..that is the failure point

 

[PES+]

Looking at the picture

It looks like you were running a wrong bar mount bar.

Can you post a picture of the bar without the chain just put on over the studs?

You will be needing a new clutch or at the very least new shoes and spring.

It looks like you may have also been running a .325 bar and chain with a worn out 3/8ths sprocket.

Post a pic of the bar numbers if you can read them, a pic of the tip and a pic of the clutch drum sprocket without the chain installed

 

[pioneerguy600]

WOW; that took a lot of heat to cause that much damage, the chain was definitely stuck for some reason, like PES+ says check all the chain and bar components to see what was wrong with the initial setup on the saw. Should not be a big problem to find another clutch, drum and bearing , hope the heat did not damage the crank seal.
Pioneerguy600

 

[Morgan]

The chain is an oregon and has a 21 stamped on the tooth that rides in the bar

the bar says:

Pioneer 474790? possibly ending in 80 not 90
16 058 328
made in Canada 12 8
Patent 1975

I don't know if my Uncle would have switched bars around? I doubt it

I would be more inclined to think I did something wrong..

unless the numbers on the bar/chain prove otherwise

 

[PES+]

Right bar and chain combo.

Amd the sprocket looks like a .325

That pioneer bar had a bad habit of plugging the oiler slot in the bar.

The slot runs from the adjuster hole up to the bar groove and if the bar groove passage gets plugged the oil runs out the top adjuster hole and makes it look like the chain is oiling when it is not going where it should.


Also I would need to dig but am almost positive the 26 used inner and outer bar plates and you need those to oil correctly.

 

[Morgan]

Yeah I have only used the saw a half dozen times..but I was keeping that groove cleaned out..but it was always full of crap!

Honestly I never thought to clean it thru and thru however (why does that seem so obvious now )..I just brushed the crap out of what I could see on the face..

I bet I wasn't getting enough oil on the bar???

what are the two plates you speak of...

all I have with the saw is pictured

thanks for your time by the way folks

 

[PES+]

I will see if I can find some tomorrow.

Maybe someone can throw up an IPL for the 26 so we can have a look see

 

[propliner]

There area no guide plates on that saw. The setup looks to be correct. I've used that model of saw a lot and never had a clutch problem.

I'll bet that the shoes were worn too far down. If that were the case then the clutch spring would start riding on the clutch drum, causing partial slippage (and heat). Also, oil buildup and crud causes slippage. Brake cleaner works great for cleaning up a clutch and I carry some in my toolkit. There was obviously lots of slippage and from your pictures the entire clutch looks to be toast. I'll bet if you replace the clutch including drum and bearing that your problems will stop. Keeping the chain sharp will prevent oiler holes from plugging. Large chips tend to stay out. Keep the nose sprocket well lubed as well.

Send me a PM if you need a clutch. I have one if you're interested. It has the newer metal shoes that are resistant to meltdown.

 

[PES+]

There area no guide plates on that saw. The setup looks to be correct. I've used that model of saw a lot and never had a clutch problem.

I'll bet that the shoes were worn too far down. If that were the case then the clutch spring would start riding on the clutch drum, causing partial slippage (and heat). Also, oil buildup and crud causes slippage. Brake cleaner works great for cleaning up a clutch and I carry some in my toolkit. There was obviously lots of slippage and from your pictures the entire clutch looks to be toast. I'll bet if you replace the clutch including drum and bearing that your problems will stop. Keeping the chain sharp will prevent oiler holes from plugging. Large chips tend to stay out. Keep the nose sprocket well lubed as well.

Send me a PM if you need a clutch. I have one if you're interested. It has the newer metal shoes that are resistant to meltdown.

What bar are you using?

I could be wrong as I am often enough but I remember several saws that if you used certain bars you had to use plates and if you used other bars you didn't.

The slot in those pioneer bars was a pain for catching dirt and dust and you had to make sure you cleaned them well when you flipped the bar.

Other brand bars that fit the application did not have the slot so they were less problematic.

 

[propliner]

I use Pioneer, Oregon and GB bars with no guide plates. All of these bars have a single oiling hole that rides up and down the slot. The only way for chips to get in there is from the chain groove. You can see that by looking at the bar pad. I've bought and sold Pioneer parts for awhile now and have never seen plates for these 52cc saws. The Farmsaws and large series saws definitely have them though.

 

[PES+]

I will get a pic.......the later pioneer bars did not have the slot I am talking about.

If you look at Morgans pics you can just make out the slot that runs from the oil hole in the bar to the bar adjuster hole.

These are the early laminated pioneer bars.

If you are still around Morgan can you post a pic of the inside of the clutch cover with it off the saw?

 

[propliner]

I'd better correct myself, the Pioneer bar does have an extra slot radiating from the oiler hole as PES+ mentioned. Even so, the entire slot and groove is covered by the bar pad. The bar pad must be clean when installing the bar or leaks may occur.

I looked up that bar number in my parts book... it's the correct number for the P26. 16" bar, .058, .325 and 69 drive links.

 

[Gumnuts]

http://www.chainsawr.com/partsDiagrams/Pioneer P26.pdf

Good luck with it.

 

[PES+]

Thanks Gumnuts

No plates in that IPL so I was thinking a different model.

Here is the slot that was a PITA on these bars.

Clear

Plugged

 

[Morgan]

Well Thanks to all..

I think the point about a sharp chain and good sized chips is key, at the time I was cutting a half rotten standing dead birch, the flakes were pretty dusty

The slot on the bar was plugged solid, and the saw had not run for a long time previously, My Uncle actually passed away a few years back, and I got the saw this christmas from my cousin

At some point the saw had been confused with a butter knife, as the chain was dull dull dull and had burnt sap all over it before I sharpened it

My Uncle as I remember it was pretty diligent with sharpening, you can see the marks from his vise on the bar...

I guess that is what old saws and sentimental value are, right now I can look over and see the marks from a stump vise, remember being a little fellow cutting wood with my Uncle and thinking he was the greatest, strongest man on earth

Fortunately I have my ol' friend that just found me a "junked" pioneer saw marked ignition trouble/parts NLA ( from the batch of parts/saws he got from a closed out saw shop here in town)

I am sure lots of saws were lost before the internet came along!

So tomorrow I will be either on my way to get parts..or to pick up a saw that is too good to tear apart apparently it is quite complete

I guess this must be a familliar story...I went to get parts and came home with a saw that was too good to part out..so then I went to get parts for that saw and I....

I will keep you posted and post some pics of it to see if it will fit the bill...or start some addiction,

I already have 4 husky saw carcases that all could be made to run I'd guess..left overs from the saw shop again given to me by my friend when we bought the house in the summer

Hmmm is this addiction sneaking up on me?

I of course left getting wood way too late and I bought a new stihl cause the house was getting cold!

Here are pics of the clutch cover, and plugged oil groove

Thanks to all again

Morgan

 

[Morgan]

Hey in the exploded diagram Gumnuts linked (thanks for that!) there is a "Log pick/stopper" (you can all die laughing now ) in the bottom right part # 430441

I should have one of those I'd guess...but do not, is that correct?

Would that go on before the bar, or after..or perhaps is that the chain plate you were speaking of?