Power/Telephone poles, cutting of

[paccity]

Pacific Wood Preserving of Oregon

 

[jwilly]

Around here they buy Red Pine for poles. The buyer will come, look at the trees and paint the suggested length on them, 32'- 57'. The problem is they promise great money but the poles are peeled and inspected before you get paid. If they don't meet spec they are either cut back or rejected. After you consider the extra work of stacking, loading and trucking long wood with equipment designed for sawlogs and then get a check smaller than expected we found it was better to cut them 16' and sell them as logs to Canada.

We did find however that different buyers were much better at marking the poles and the check was closer to what we expected. It all depended on number of knots and how close they were up the pole, if there were more than 5 branches on the ring it was a reject and I don't remember how close they could be. It can be a crap shoot.

 

[northmanlogging]

hmm, sound like some markets are great and some are a little shady. Guess I'll have to have a nice long pow wow with the cruiser they send out.

 

[HuskStihl]

I run a gyppo operation in a different line of work and find myself completely at the mercy of the "sawmills" I deal with. In logging, are bigger operations able to negotiate better rates from the mills, or have more recourse when the check is smaller than it should be?

BTW, I'm missing Bob and apologize to the group if it was my foolish questions that finally broke his AS spirit

 

[jwilly]

I think the bigger operations can absorb the price differences easier than the little guy because of the volume they deal with. When we cut the poles we were quoted prices for each length, we cut them, had them loaded and tallied and were quite surprised when the tally from the mill came back much different. 2nd time around had a different buyer and I asked a lot more questions. This time the buyer was a much better scaler and could estimate the sizes better and paid more attention to the branch locations. The first time around I think the diameter at the specified length was overestimated so the poles all became shorter and less money.

 

[slowp]

hmm, sound like some markets are great and some are a little shady. Guess I'll have to have a nice long pow wow with the cruiser they send out.

Note the eastern location of the shady markets. I think you'll do OK if you have the quality.

 

[slowp]

I run a gyppo operation in a different line of work and find myself completely at the mercy of the "sawmills" I deal with. In logging, are bigger operations able to negotiate better rates from the mills, or have more recourse when the check is smaller than it should be?

BTW, I'm missing Bob and apologize to the group if it was my foolish questions that finally broke his AS spirit

Our local mill buys timber on the stump and generally uses the same logging outifits over and over to log what they buy. They will also buy logs from other loggers, but those folks do not always seem happy with the price, which fluctuates according to the demand. Their pet companies still need to bid on the job--that's the negotiation. My opinion is that the mill knows these guys do a good job, without much fuss, so that is worth hiring them again.

It is pretty well known how the log scaling is done at each mill--some pay by weight and some by scale. Loggers know what the mills want so usually know what they'll get. I have heard the pole market has been good the last few years in our part of the country.

 

[madhatte]

My opinion is that the mill knows these guys do a good job, without much fuss, so that is worth hiring them again.

Likewise, the landowners know the same, and are pleased to see trusted folks at the auction table.

 

[jwilly]

I don't think the markets are necessarily shady. In our case it was just not asking enough questions. I don't remember the prices quoted but if it were $1/foot you'd that's what you would get. After they debark and inspect them, reject some for too many knots on a whorl or whorls too close together you can lose a lot. With sawlogs you can cut to the spec for the mill. We just cut the trees that the buyer marked to the lengths he marked, not understanding that may they change after inspection at the mill. We calculated the approximate scale on the next load and found we were safer and farther ahead just cutting into logs, it worked out to more/bf. We did cut more poles for the same outfit but this time we were paid for the lengths as marked up front. I guess they really wanted the poles.

 

[1270d]

I run a gyppo operation in a different line of work and find myself completely at the mercy of the "sawmills" I deal with. In logging, are bigger operations able to negotiate better rates from the mills, or have more recourse when the check is smaller than it should be?

BTW, I'm missing Bob and apologize to the group if it was my foolish questions that finally broke his AS spirit

In my area the bigger shows definitely have more say in their rates. The minimum volume is around 10000 crds a month if you expect to negotiate a better rate. Some of the big players pay more for stumpage than the mill's advertised price delivered.

 

[treeslayer2003]

In my area the bigger shows definitely have more say in their rates. The minimum volume is around 10000 crds a month if you expect to negotiate a better rate. Some of the big players pay more for stumpage than the mill's advertised price delivered.

yep, figure that one out.

 

[northmanlogging]

The big outfits get the big timber jobs, mostly because they have the equipment and something of a reputation, I on the other hand have neither... Although I've been working hard on getting a good reputation, its just not real easy in this neck of the brush.

That being so, when I do have logging work in front of me I do pretty good, after all my over head is nearly nothing, diesel, parts, insurance, in that order. No wages to worry about so everything I make over those three goes to more equipment or to line my pockets. Eventually it will start going to buying acreage... eventually...

 

[CollegeLogger]

More often than not, utility poles are going to pay better than saw logs even if its just going to be one load. I worked for bell timber, the log buying and forestry end of bell pole in the lake states for a couple years out of college. The Conway yard is the Washington yard for the western division. Most buyers are going to want at least a load to make it worth there time to come out and mark the trees. Load sizes vary on the length and species of poles that make up the load. For red pine 35 footers it was roughly 35 pieces to a truckload with longer lengths being less than that. Payment was by the cord with a conversion factor because all loads were weighed and then converted to cords, usually it was 10 cords to a truckload. Price per cord on the landing depended on how far they were from the yard and trucking costs associated with that.
Lengths for poles varied from 35 to 70 ft in the lake states for red pine. Douglas for and cedar were 35 to 125 ft tall. I know in British Columbia and parts of Washington, they were heli logging them using the standing stick method where there still attached to the stump when the helicopter comes to get them to avoid breakage sometimes associated with traditionally falling them. Trucking is usually taken care of by the company unless the logger could truck the poles himself. Just make sure to buck at the length on the pole and trim the limbs close while not cutting into the body of the pole as that may cull the whole pole. I know my view and information on this is from the lake states, but the methods and way they are done is usually the same. Hope this helps.

 

[Spotted Owl]

May sound trivial, but watch your lengths. Ya can get in a rut of looking for the odds, poles will have lots of evens on the tape. Walk with the cruiser and learn defect before you cut to save your self some work. Put all your other wood on the ground first, then you will have less chance for damage when you drop your pole stock. It's also easier for the ground guys and landing equipment to separate. A big Spencer can help but usually I don't have it close by so I just double the 50. Mark the butt somehow so there is no confusion at the landing, usually it's crayon, written length and "POLE", also a small snipe as markers that it's pole stock. Keep track on your hat so you know what you cut is going to the pole mill and not getting mixed up on the deck. If you run into a big pole, get paid or have it written in the paper before it's cut and especially before is moves once it's on the ground. A lot of the times drivers don't like the BIG ones and will take it upon themselves to trim it down, so it's easier for them.



Owl

 

[OlympicYJ]

Patty hit it on the head about contract loggers. We do have our preferences. If you have the iron and do a good job you usually stick around. The guys that have the iron, experience, and willingness to take the tough jobs can shall we say command their price and if your really god if you ask for a couple bucks more you'll get it.

College logger; I'm guessing those red pine poles are a little smaller than what we have here in WA so would make sense for more pieces on the truck. Most I've seen were about 6 sticks but that was doug fir. Cedar would be about the same but more likely shorter lengths than the DF.

Jwilly; probably just the learning curve on your first load. As you gained experience you got better and having a knowledgeable and helpful forester is definitely a big help. That's what were here for. Some guys I suppose not, but I personally would rather have my logger asking me questions and asking me to come out and work with him to make sure things were right rather than not. Guys like that stick around unless you're on the phone every 5 mins about stuff you should know if you've been working for the outfit for a while. New to the company loggers questions are good it shows you're dedicated to doing the job right but you can go overboard. I've seen this happen. Don't ask the same question too many times because it will appear you aren't getting it and they'll cut ya loose. The best question is to ask is"how are we doing?" A good honest forester will tell you exactly how you are doing.

 

[slowp]

And we get questions when a timber purchaser is considering hiring a logger new to them like "Have you heard anything about so and so? Have you ever worked with them? "

Kind of an informal reference check. I think I gave an unthoughtful, disgusted Oh Gawd sigh on the phone when one guy was mentioned. Unfortunately, they'd hired him.

Some purchasers and bigger logging outfits will even try to get a crew that the forester has had good rapport with back each time. That's nice because you know what everybody is like and what they'll do.

 

[madhatte]

Where I work, pretty much the same handful of outfits get all the bids -- that's because they're the only ones doing the bidding. They all do a good job, and we're happy to see 'em every time. It's a pretty good arrangement. Sometimes we have weird requirements, usually having something to do with road maintenance, that they factor in to their bid prices. It's a pretty good system, mostly, and we do listen to input from pretty much anybody who has any, and incorporate what makes sense to do so.

 

[jwilly]

I would definitely cut red pine poles again but the lot we are working doesn't have very many reds. The few that are around are some of the biggest I've seen.

Just got a Christmas card from the forester we are working with and it said," Thanks for the excellent workmanship." Same thing for the landowner, it's nice to have the extra work doing a nice job appreciated.

 

[northmanlogging]

Their buyer came out this morning despite the snow, seemed pretty positive on what we got there. Just have to work my way back into them now. And you know fall em without breaking everything, then skid em out... tree length... with a itsy bitsy wittle skidder...

no problem...

 

[treeslayer2003]

strait pull north, strait pull