powerlines

[ropensaddle]

nice work on the tree any other day i wouldnt blink at working around the lines but the guy i know getting electricuted really bugged me. just made me think about how close i been getting to them.

i really like the upper class comunity that have all the electricity under ground. a town in pa called sewickly most if not all power even to the houses is under ground.

Ice storm 2000 We had total black out twice as two separate and devastating storms hit a coulple weeks apart. In all the chaos one of our leaders said he was going to fix the problem by putting power underground in a short time lol. Me and my boss who had managed the power company some 25 years were loao because it took 40 years to get the power we have above ground installed and this guy thought he had the solution he should have checked with someone in the field before making a public statement Many people like the thought of underground so their trees wont have to be trimmed but the truth is; it usually kills a fairly high % of trees near underground construction of power. It is also bad expensive.

 

[brnchbrkr]

what are your guys thoughts on working around power lines.

how ive always done it was i cut them down as long as they where not grown through unisulated high tension you know the ones on the top of the poles.

i have never had a problem working around the lower insulated lines a tree i took down 2 days ago was grown through the botom wire. i just cut them on each side causing them to fall out.

is this crazy or severarly dangerous as i have done it for alot of the companies i work for. when i do this im in a fiberglass boom on my bucket truck.

what do you guys think? should i change my ways?

You may enjoy reading a short story about Guido, posted by Mapleman!

http://arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=98183&highlight=guido

http://arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=98902&highlight=guido

 

[PaulPollard]

I read not too long ago about a crane that got energized - might not have been doing tree work - but the first guy who ran up to the crane and touched it was killed instantly. Guess he was watching his operator buddy getting cooked inside and was planning on just pulling them out???

You don't want anyone touching or leaning on your bucket truck or chipper when your swinging around lines, even though the boom is usually rated for 50Kv or something it all changes with a bit of moisture or a short through something. I am sure more than one tree worker on the ground has been killed this way.

 

[B-Edwards]

If you don't know what the wires are (tele, cable. electric ) treat every wire like its 7200 or higher. But as was said in the first of this thread if you don't know you might want to let it alone until trained. Just takes one oops and you wont have to worry anymore. Not trying to be a jerk but it really is that simple. I have almost died several times doing right of way during ice storms and Hugo. Every single time it would have been my fault and it was not the electricity. Made me alot better at the work but some aren't lucky enough to survive an oops

 

[lone wolf]

If you don't know what the wires are (tele, cable. electric ) treat every wire like its 7200 or higher. But as was said in the first of this thread if you don't know you might want to let it alone until trained. Just takes one oops and you wont have to worry anymore. Not trying to be a jerk but it really is that simple. I have almost died several times doing right of way during ice storms and Hugo. Every single time it would have been my fault and it was not the electricity. Made me alot better at the work but some aren't lucky enough to survive an oops

it is not worth it if you cant get a bucket in have them put a shield on the line or do something.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Actually no, the service drops have merely a protective sheath that isolates the two hots from the ground neutral. It is against law for non Qualified personal to get within ten foot of any overhead energized conductors. I am qualified after supervising and performing line clearance many years.

*sigh*

Here we go again. It's become glaringly obvious that the power industry is doing a PISS POOR job of educating line trimmers, and even electrical power workers.

I say that because I keep coming across this line of COMPLETE BULL####!!!!!

I normally don't use that kind of language, but this just flat PISSES ME OFF!

IT IS INSULATION! If its purpose is to keep electricity from flowing where it's not wanted, THAT'S THE DEFINITION OF INSULATION!!!!!!

Apparently some people have the idea that "insulation" means "something that will keep you safe from electricity".

BULL####!!!

STUPID BULL####!!!!


The ONLY thing that will keep you safe is not doing stupid things, and sometimes that doesn't even work!


If it's a cover over the wire to keep electricity from flowing between them, IT IS INSULATION.



On a thread a few years ago, I presented LINK AFTER LINK to POWER INDUSTRY SOURCES, showing that triplex service drops are INSULATED. NOT "weather coated".

All of the so-called "experts", including arborists who are certified to work on high voltage, and even linemen, stubbornly and STUPIDLY refused to read the FACTS I posted, and continued to insist that service drops have merely a "weather coating" on them. This is FLAT WRONG and very DANGEROUS.

I'm not going to go back and do that all again, but anybody who wants to can check it out for himself. You can check the thread I linked above, or you can do some searching yourself. I'll give you one link to get you started.

Here:


Service Drop/Cable

A service drop or service cable connects the transformer to the weatherhead or downpipe of a home or business. Service drops are the overhead lines that connect an aerial transformer to a weatherhead. Service cables are underground lines that connect an aerial or padmount transformer to a downpipe via an underground route. Both the service drop and cable are insulated wires.

That doesn't mean they are SAFE to work around. It's electricity. It's not safe!

But there's nothing MORE dangerous than WRONG IDEAS about dangerous things like electricity.


Here, for those who have functional brains:

http://www.altavista.com/web/results?itag=ody&q=insulation+service+drop+&kgs=1&kls=0

http://www.altavista.com/web/result...sidential+service+drop+electrical&kgs=1&kls=0

 

[RacerX]

People really believe that the stuff surrounding the service drop conductors is not insulation?

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

People really believe that the stuff surrounding the service drop conductors is not insulation?

Yep. Apparently that's what some in the industry are teaching!

 

[treemandan]

Hell, one time this jackass sends out a limb and take the service drop down. He ripped it off the house. The Bawss has us put it back up. He was complaining how much it would cost him to fix it if he called the right people to do it. I should have quit right then and there.
One time I ripped a service drop off a house on one of my own jobs, actually I was a sub for another company. It was totally my fault and I called the power company and went home.

 

[Rftreeman]

People really believe that the stuff surrounding the service drop conductors is not insulation?

it may be insulation but that doesn't mean it's safe to handle without the proper tools and PPE, all it takes is a pinhole and as little as 1/10 of an amp and you're dead, that cover is more for keeping the weather off the wire than for protection from getting you fried...

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

it may be insulation but that doesn't mean it's safe to handle without the proper tools and PPE,

Never said it was. Nobody should ever consider power lines to be SAFE.


But safety is a relative term. Trimming branches around a service drop is a lot less dangerous than trimming branches around 7kv lines, and trimming branches around 7 kV lines for an experienced, trained, certified arborist is a lot less dangerous than for Joe Homeowner. The arborist can do it, and reasonably expect to home at the end of the day. The homeowner should NEVER attempt it. Given the cluelessness of many people, most homeowners should not attempt to trim branches around a service drop, either. I don't have any problem doing it. I know what's involved.

It's like felling trees. I would NEVER attempt to fell a 48: DBH leaner over a house. It's not safe for me - I don't have enough training and experience, and I don't have the right equipment. I'll pass that on to the pros.

Now, a 24" DBH straight tree with an open drop zone? Sure, I'll do that.

Is it SAFE for me? No, it's not safe. Neither is it perfectly safe for a certified faller. It's not perfectly safe for ANYBODY. Felling trees is a dangerous job. Always.

But it's an ACCEPTABLE level of risk for me to fell that 24 incher. It's reasonable. The 48? No way.

all it takes is a pinhole and as little as 1/10 of an amp and you're dead,

Yep. (Though, to be picky, the figure usually given is a quarter of an amp.)

that cover is more for keeping the weather off the wire than for protection from getting you fried...

Nope.It's there to keep the two hots and the neutral from shorting. Think about what would happen if the neutral were in direct electrical contact with the hot wires, or the hot wires with each other. Since they are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, they are electrically opposite, just like + and - on your car battery.

Wrap those three together with no insulation and you'll have a quick kaboom!

It's also there for human protection. Since service drops are often more easily human accessible than the high voltage stuff, they need to be insulated. It's not perfect protection, but it's a whale of a lot better than bare hot wire! But because it's not considered SAFE, access to the service drop is restricted. For example, you aren't supposed to have a surface drop running over a rooftop where people could walk into it. It has to be out of reach under ordinary conditions. So, for example, the downpipe can be at the edge of a flat roof, but not in the middle, unless it is high enough to get the drop up above human contact.

 

[Rftreeman]

Never said it was. Nobody should ever consider power lines to be SAFE.


But safety is a relative term. Trimming branches around a service drop is a lot less dangerous than trimming branches around 7kv lines, and trimming branches around 7 kV lines for an experienced, trained, certified arborist is a lot less dangerous than for Joe Homeowner. The arborist can do it, and reasonably expect to home at the end of the day. The homeowner should NEVER attempt it. Given the cluelessness of many people, most homeowners should not attempt to trim branches around a service drop, either. I don't have any problem doing it. I know what's involved.

It's like felling trees. I would NEVER attempt to fell a 48: DBH leaner over a house. It's not safe for me - I don't have enough training and experience, and I don't have the right equipment. I'll pass that on to the pros.

Now, a 24" DBH straight tree with an open drop zone? Sure, I'll do that.

Is it SAFE for me? No, it's not safe. Neither is it perfectly safe for a certified faller. It's not perfectly safe for ANYBODY. Felling trees is a dangerous job. Always.

But it's an ACCEPTABLE level of risk for me to fell that 24 incher. It's reasonable. The 48? No way.






Yep. (Though, to be picky, the figure usually given is a quarter of an amp.)





Nope.It's there to keep the two hots and the neutral from shorting. Think about what would happen if the neutral were in direct electrical contact with the hot wires, or the hot wires with each other. Since they are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, they are electrically opposite, just like + and - on your car battery.

Wrap those three together with no insulation and you'll have a quick kaboom!

It's also there for human protection. Since service drops are often more easily human accessible than the high voltage stuff, they need to be insulated. It's not perfect protection, but it's a whale of a lot better than bare hot wire! But because it's not considered SAFE, access to the service drop is restricted. For example, you aren't supposed to have a surface drop running over a rooftop where people could walk into it. It has to be out of reach under ordinary conditions. So, for example, the downpipe can be at the edge of a flat roof, but not in the middle, unless it is high enough to get the drop up above human contact.

I'm not going to argue, I'll keep my training in mind and stay alive, your preachings can get someone killed....

 

[beowulf343]

it may be insulation but that doesn't mean it's safe to handle without the proper tools and PPE, all it takes is a pinhole and as little as 1/10 of an amp and you're dead, that cover is more for keeping the weather off the wire than for protection from getting you fried...

I'm not going to argue, I'll keep my training in mind and stay alive, your preachings can get someone killed....

Not that it means anything, but as a former row worker and certified to work around power, i agree. I've seen that insulation rubbed off by a tree or scraped by a pole saw. Power doesn't always need to be feared, but it's when you don't respect it that it will bite you.

 

[ropensaddle]

*sigh*

Here we go again. It's become glaringly obvious that the power industry is doing a PISS POOR job of educating line trimmers, and even electrical power workers.

I say that because I keep coming across this line of COMPLETE BULL####!!!!!

I normally don't use that kind of language, but this just flat PISSES ME OFF!

IT IS INSULATION! If its purpose is to keep electricity from flowing where it's not wanted, THAT'S THE DEFINITION OF INSULATION!!!!!!

Apparently some people have the idea that "insulation" means "something that will keep you safe from electricity".

BULL####!!!

STUPID BULL####!!!!


The ONLY thing that will keep you safe is not doing stupid things, and sometimes that doesn't even work!


If it's a cover over the wire to keep electricity from flowing between them, IT IS INSULATION.



On a thread a few years ago, I presented LINK AFTER LINK to POWER INDUSTRY SOURCES, showing that triplex service drops are INSULATED. NOT "weather coated".

All of the so-called "experts", including arborists who are certified to work on high voltage, and even linemen, stubbornly and STUPIDLY refused to read the FACTS I posted, and continued to insist that service drops have merely a "weather coating" on them. This is FLAT WRONG and very DANGEROUS.

I'm not going to go back and do that all again, but anybody who wants to can check it out for himself. You can check the thread I linked above, or you can do some searching yourself. I'll give you one link to get you started.

Here:


Service Drop/Cable




That doesn't mean they are SAFE to work around. It's electricity. It's not safe!

But there's nothing MORE dangerous than WRONG IDEAS about dangerous things like electricity.


Here, for those who have functional brains:

http://www.altavista.com/web/results?itag=ody&q=insulation+service+drop+&kgs=1&kls=0

http://www.altavista.com/web/result...sidential+service+drop+electrical&kgs=1&kls=0

Welp, the man who told me it was a mere weather coating was the manager of a large power company with many certificates and more training than I, so I believed him. Also; why is it always cracked, I mean should not a good insulation remain pliable? How is thinking it is not safe to touch dangerous; I figure the other way of thinking dangerous.

 

[Ertreesurgeon]

ok guys..
in this area i can call myself an expert. i have been doing powerline clearance for 11 years. i work for asplundh and thats all we do. the triplex that goes to the house is 240v. the wires have a coating on them that keeps them seperated from each other. however time, squirels and rubbing against trees can expose the wire inside. it does not matter about the amount of electricity in a wire its the amps that cause the heart to stop. thats the flow of electricity. it only takes 1/10 of an amp to cause heart fibrullation. the wires from pole to pole go up in voltage as they get higher on the pole. first is either bell telephone or cable were not always concerned with those, but if 5 spans down the line theres a tree on the wire and its contacting a high voltage line it will energize them. ive been shocked thru them before. minimum separation for those lines is do not touch. next is your secondary wire, which are either bundled or open wire. theyre the ones the triplexes run off of. these are the same voltage as the triplex. beware of the open wire secondaries - if you get your pole clip in them or smack two of them together the lines will spark (or more times than not - blow the transformer). next above that is your primary voltage line. it can be single phase, 4,000 volts, 13,200 volts or 34,000 volts. minimum separation for these lines (if youre not a certified electrical worker) is at least 10 feet, if you are certified then 2'4" and 2'9". this electricity will go through branches and pole clips (wet, dirty). it doesnt matter if you are using a hydraulic pole saw from a lift truck, if the hydraulic fluid is not rated for work around electrical conductors, it's no good. the boom truck should be inspected every year to work around electrical conductors. electricity can go through dirty equipment, due to the minerals in dirt. electricty tries to find the fastest path to ground, with the least resistance. if there is a tree near a high bvoltage line call the local power company & they can get their tree service to give you ANSI clearance to make it safe for you at no cost. they'll leave the debris laying for the contractor to clean up. this is how it works in my region - i'm not certain about others. if you are not sure about these things, just stay away from conductors. i've had co-workers severely burned & killed. if you have any questions about these lines, just email and ask me. configuration on poles changes from region to region - so some things might be different. ***about the insulation on the wires - i've seen demonstrations where they poke a hole in the insulation with a needle & cook a hotdog through an insulated lineman's glove - and you can't see a pinhole***

 

[ropensaddle]

But safety is a relative term. Trimming branches around a service drop is a lot less dangerous than trimming branches around 7kv lines, and trimming branches around 7 kV lines for an experienced, trained, certified arborist is a lot less dangerous than for Joe Homeowner.

It is my belief that service drops are more dangerous to human life because of the complacency exhibited right here in your post. Also;they are easily accessed by people like you that can reach them. It is never the less illegal for you if you are not qualified in line clearance. I have trimmed more burning trees than I care to remember and yes they were dangerous, staying out of the path of least resistance was what kept me alive.

 

[ropensaddle]

ok guys..
in this area i can call myself an expert. i have been doing powerline clearance for 11 years. i work for asplundh and thats all we do. the triplex that goes to the house is 240v. the wires have a coating on them that keeps them seperated from each other. however time, squirels and rubbing against trees can expose the wire inside. it does not matter about the amount of electricity in a wire its the amps that cause the heart to stop. thats the flow of electricity. it only takes 1/10 of an amp to cause heart fibrullation. the wires from pole to pole go up in voltage as they get higher on the pole. first is either bell telephone or cable were not always concerned with those, but if 5 spans down the line theres a tree on the wire and its contacting a high voltage line it will energize them. ive been shocked thru them before. minimum separation for those lines is do not touch. next is your secondary wire, which are either bundled or open wire. theyre the ones the triplexes run off of. these are the same voltage as the triplex. beware of the open wire secondaries - if you get your pole clip in them or smack two of them together the lines will spark (or more times than not - blow the transformer). next above that is your primary voltage line. it can be single phase, 4,000 volts, 13,200 volts or 34,000 volts. minimum separation for these lines (if youre not a certified electrical worker) is at least 10 feet, if you are certified then 2'4" and 2'9". this electricity will go through branches and pole clips (wet, dirty). it doesnt matter if you are using a hydraulic pole saw from a lift truck, if the hydraulic fluid is not rated for work around electrical conductors, it's no good. the boom truck should be inspected every year to work around electrical conductors. electricity can go through dirty equipment, due to the minerals in dirt. electricty tries to find the fastest path to ground, with the least resistance. if there is a tree near a high bvoltage line call the local power company & they can get their tree service to give you ANSI clearance to make it safe for you at no cost. they'll leave the debris laying for the contractor to clean up. this is how it works in my region - i'm not certain about others. if you are not sure about these things, just stay away from conductors. i've had co-workers severely burned & killed. if you have any questions about these lines, just email and ask me. configuration on poles changes from region to region - so some things might be different. ***about the insulation on the wires - i've seen demonstrations where they poke a hole in the insulation with a needle & cook a hotdog through an insulated lineman's glove - and you can't see a pinhole***

I had ten with the orange weenie and thirteen with the coop as a danger tree expert Now I am just an old fart lmfao. 500 kv lines were the funnest to trim.

 

[Ertreesurgeon]

I had ten with the orange weenie and thirteen with the coop as a danger tree expert Now I am just an old fart lmfao. 500 kv lines were the funnest to trim.

I do mostly distribution lines up to 34kv. But have spent some time on overhead with the 500kv right of way clearing. We are always bailling out guys who drop limbs or whole trees on lines

 

[ropensaddle]

I do mostly distribution lines up to 34kv. But have spent some time on overhead with the 500kv right of way clearing. We are always bailling out guys who drop limbs or whole trees on lines

Lol yup the old landscaper syndrome :hmm3grin2orange: The reason I enjoyed 500 kv was fun falling, anything closer to the line was cut, we cut some monsters.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

I'm not going to argue, I'll keep my training in mind and stay alive, your preachings can get someone killed....

My "preachings" are FACT, back up by numerous links to industry sources, not some old guy who had umpty-seven years of "experience", and probably didn't know a Coulomb from a Columbian.


The worst danger is from old-wives tales, like "weather coating" on service drops.


In this case, I can't think of anything more dangerous than equating "insulation" with safety.