Proper Branch Removal Question

[murphy4trees]

Guy..
You are sounding a little defensive there.... You know I respect and admire your knowledge and your contributions to the industry. You certainly have helped my thinking on some very important issues... So if I bust on your climbing with a pole saw it is certainly not meant as disrespect.

It is up to us to set a good example for others on the site, and I expect that other climbers hearing all the knowledge you have... board certified master arborsit and all, might think that pruning with a pole saw is an admirable thing. I wouldn't want them to get the wrong impression..

The first time I ever saw big Jon climb, he was fine pruning a 100' red oak, probably 70-75' spread.. the thing was loaded with deadwood... stressed from getting blacktopped right to the trunk flare... deadwod big and small, spread out directly over two neighboring houses.. hadn't been touched in years... Looked so bad the customer and I discussed wether it should even be pruned, or maybe that was a waste of money and she should just take it down.

John walked out to the tips of every branch on that tree and took every little dead twig out with a handsaw... He only called for chainsaw on a few big dry limbs in the center on the main stem... I wish you would have seen that. Hanging upside down to reach out to the very tip of those long horizontal leads... He might have been 4 hours in the tree... You'd have been there all day or longer trying to pick at those sticks with a pole saw...

I never knew climbing like that was possible until I saw it. And once I saw it enough, I started thinking maybe I can climb like that too. I still remember the first time I ever climbed a tree in a butterfly saddle... I felt like Peter Pan, flying around the canopy... And before that, the time I came out of this walnut after John had taken down a monster sweet gum. He looked at my Double D weaver saddle and said... "It would have taken me two days to take that sweet gum down if I tried to do it in that saddle"...

And the time I watched this contract climber I went to high school with take 6.5 hours to prune a fairly good sized Norway maple with a good spread.. This tree was sizable, maybe 60', but no monster, and only had one little corner over the house.. He set his climbing line low in the center of the tree with a pole saw.. tautline hitch and then he used the pole to set the other end of the climbing line out on each limb, as a second tie in point. He'd pull himself out a ways and try to pick at the branch tips with the pole saw. It took forever... Every time I watched him thrust his hips and use two hands to advance his knot, I cringed. "Oh my God!"... I thought.. I can't believe I used to climb like that. All those years of wasted energy...

So if you are on the west coast pruning big doug firs, then get a good pole saw and have at it... But if you are climbing broad leaf trees, then leave the pole saw behind and learn to climb.. And don;t tell me you can make good cuts with a pole saw... You're kidding yourself... and even if you could it is a waste of time... it's just faster and easier to climb to the tips and make small cuts with a hand saw... That is proper pruning...saying anything different is a disservice to the industry...

If your style of climbing works for you, and you don't want to change... then keep it... just don't go promoting pruning trees with a pole saw... It is second class arboriculture.

 

[D Mc]

WOW, really Dan. I am amazed that anybody who has been in the business for a long time and somebody with whom I have agreed on most of their posts could make so many erroneous statements.

I am just going to focus on the polesaw critique. I would expect comments like that from a five year rookie. It's ego. Not truth.

I spent most of my climbing career hanging upside down on the ends of long horizontal branches cleaning tips. I do know what I am talking about. The harness I learned on was a Bry-Dan saddle, had integrated shoulder straps that were designed for life support, specifically for this purpose. To keep us skinny-hipped young climbers from slipping out when hanging upside down.

You can't compare a marginal climber and his plodding use of equipment as a basis for degrading the equipment. If that were true, there would be nothing left for any of us to use. You recognise the benefits of 11 mm lines, advanced knots and gear but you refuse to recognise the benefit of a 4.3 lb pole saw that has a 12 ft reach and a razorsharp blade.

There are literally hundreds of species of trees that would be totally inappropriate to do in the manner you suggest. So your options are, don't do that because "pole saw is second class arboriculture" (what crap!).

There has been a rash in the last several years of climbers dying and getting seriously injured from TIP failures. Your type of thinking promotes an activity which, for the lesser experienced climber, is extremely dangerous. To reach all deadwood with a handsaw in most trees would require climbing above your TIP at some point in time. This increases the odds of catistrophic failure as does strong side force vectors.

I have yet to hear any statement regarding tree work that narrows down an approach to one technique that is true. It will fail in the field. Learn to use all the tools and techniques to yours and the trees best advantage.

Dave

 

[murphy4trees]

movin' to montana soon

Dave,
I read a few of your posts and seems like you know what you are talking about too... We are going to have to agree to disagree here though..
To some degree it could be a difference in species by locations... I've always wondered how do you deadwood a live oak with a spread 2x its height.
You mentioned hundreds of species... perhaps you could name them...

Also you state: "To reach all deadwood with a handsaw in most trees would require climbing above your TIP at some point in time." What kind of trees are these?... certainly not the ones we have out here.. It is just really rare to use a pole saw in a tree.. for pruniung, setting lines, pulling hangers.. just about anything can be done faster by climbing, though occasionally hangers will get caught in an adjacent tree.

And this isn't just me... (apologies in advance for name dropping) Mark Chisholm, Jim Roach, Pat Eps, John Grier (big John) and many more... They don't use pole saws in the tree... You work as a two person crew with your wife in Montana.. these guys have worked for some of the best tree care companies in the world.. I AM pretty sure JPS and Tom Dunlap would back me up on this. They have worked all over the country with some amazing climbers. I'd like to hear their comments..

I think this is an important issue, as the industry needs to know what good climbing is so they can advance towards that goal.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I AM pretty sure JPS and

I think the pole saw is a tool, just like a bucket truck and chainsaw that can be used by a skilled practitioner in a reasonable fashion.

Just as it can be overused, it can be underused by high end climbers that scoff at it as a crutch

IMO getting a perfect cut 100% of the time on a fine prune is a disservice to the client just to stroke your ego on how good you can do it. That said, I've see some really old nasty polesaw cuts in trees I've worked.

The climber that uses a polesaw over structures 100% of the time is either skipping some stuff that cannot be controled or is risking damage to avoid a climb.

And then the climbing above the TIP... that is one reason why we have a flipline!

Pole saws don't make bad cut, bad workers do.

As fore Guy's climbing skills, I've seen him climb 60 ft up by advancing his line by polesaw, then shimmy anther 30 to get a good TIP because the saw would not reach. He just sais he's too old to learn throwball and footlock

 

[S Mc]

Dave,
You work as a two person crew with your wife in Montana.. these guys have worked for some of the best tree care companies in the world.. I AM pretty sure JPS and Tom Dunlap would back me up on this. They have worked all over the country with some amazing climbers. I'd like to hear their comments..

So, Mr. Dan the Tree Cutter Murphy...You seem to imply that geographical location is somehow an indicator of quality work; you also seem to think that small is synonomous with lack of experience. I am SURE, however, you did not mean to imply in any way, shape or means, that working with a WOMAN meant substandard work.

You also state that every 3 to 6 months you use a pole saw. Is that the time you offer second rate arboriculture to your clients? Or is this the situation where you find that this tool is the right implement for the job?

Many trees of various species will present a situation where it is difficult or impossible to reach out by hand and make the appropriate cut. Having a variety of tools, with which you are proficient, will make you a better arborist.

We have no idea if this is even necessary with the OP's willow oak, because we do not have a picture.

Sylvia

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Silvia's Mother said
Silvia's packin
a shotgun and
lookin for Dan

With apologies to all the members of Dr. Hook

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/d/dr.+hook/sylvias+mother_20352850.html

 

[treeseer]

I think the pole saw is a tool, just like a bucket truck and chainsaw that can be used by a skilled practitioner in a reasonable fashion.

Just as it can be overused, it can be underused by high end climbers that scoff at it as a crutch

IMO getting a perfect cut 100% of the time on a fine prune is a disservice to the client just to stroke your ego on how good you can do it. That said, I've see some really old nasty polesaw cuts in trees I've worked.

The climber that uses a polesaw over structures 100% of the time is either skipping some stuff that cannot be controled or is risking damage to avoid a climb.

And then the climbing above the TIP... that is one reason why we have a flipline!

Pole saws don't make bad cut, bad workers do.

As fore Guy's climbing skills, I've seen him climb 60 ft up by advancing his line by polesaw, then shimmy anther 30 to get a good TIP because the saw would not reach. He just sais he's too old to learn throwball and footlock

I totally agree with JPS here, except the end part..I do know throwball kinda, and I am open to learning to footlock even at my advanced age. also btw that extra 30 feet was NOT freeclimbed but using lanyards.

Murph chill out with this "disservice to the industry" trash. Reread the June article and look at the pictures--poles absolutely needed to reduce many broadleaved trees. Don't rile the Montanans any more or we will have a war here. O and I have climbed several with Dunlap and he does not reject pole usage.

If you leave PA once in a while you may grow less absolutist in your judgments. Now be nice, everybody!

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

also btw that extra 30 feet was NOT freeclimbed but using lanyards.

But you did shimmy up there at 56 years.

I remember it so well because I was wanting to hurl so bad and so tired that it was even more humiliating to see the "old man" doing so much better

 

[appalachianarbo]

I think the pole saw is a tool, just like a bucket truck and chainsaw that can be used by a skilled practitioner in a reasonable fashion.

Just as it can be overused, it can be underused by high end climbers that scoff at it as a crutch

+1. I use a polesaw in certain sutuations. When I'm working alone, I always have the polesaw tied onto the tail of my rope so I can haul it up if I need it.

I used my polesaw Friday. I deadwooded a star magnolia. It was very brittle, and I could not put my weight on small branches. My polesaw did the trick.

That being said, I also ruined my polesaw that day. I left it lying against a tree and dropped a 3' by 5" peice onto the handle, bending it and ruining the handle. I've got a new Longboy on the way...

 

[treeseer]

I was wanting to hurl so bad and so tired that it was even more humiliating to see the "old man" doing so much better.

Was lunch that bad? I fergit...

first pic is a topped pecan that needed reduction cuts on 2' wood, inaccessible by climbing even if you are 6'6"

apparbo was up the tree in the attached pic. bigjohn has great gifts but no one could climb to the best cut locations in this or many trees.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

That being said, I also ruined my polesaw that day. .... I've got a new Longboy on the way...

I had my 21ft Hayauchi in the bed of the pickup, forgot to close the gate, heard something funny on the morning drive, pulled over and saw it in the road as a semi ran over the end...

Was lunch that bad? I fergit...

I had been fighting something for several days, probably drank the water. it does not take a third world country. I've learned to eat at the Waffle House every morning and drink hot coffee when on the road. Never had a problem with that. Triple hashbrowns covered, capped, slathered, smothered.... with a half a bottle of salsa. Mmmmm

 

[Bigus Termitius]

This is why I come to AS...

..to pull up a chair and watch and learn from the elders....from what truly is first class arboriculture, gear selection suggestions, to road trip dining tips that will keep you out of trouble.

This place has it all!

 

[murphy4trees]

good ol' waffle house!

LOL Biggy...
And JPS...I developped a similar strategy for road trips... Park near a waffle house whenever possible... I was real sentisive to MSG back then, for Isabel and then Charlie. Couldn't eat in most resturaunts.. I'd order 9-12 eggs over easy and triple hash brown smotherred and slatherred with copious amounts of hot sause, and I'd be good 'til dinner which might be as late as 9:30...

And Sylvia..
no disrespect meant.. Good on ya for getting out there and doing it.. and no disrepect to Montana....though you must admit, it is hardly the Mecca of progressive arboriculture... I was compelled to use that prespective because of a couple statements made by dave. Specifiaclly... 1) "There are literally hundreds of species of trees that would be totally inappropriate to do in the manner you suggest" (he's talking not using a pole saw to prune) and 2) "To reach all deadwood with a handsaw in most trees would require climbing above your TIP at some point in time."

Most of the deadwood I remove is in the lower end of most trees out here in PA. So #2 makes no sense to me.

for #1) You also said "Many trees of various species will present a situation where it is difficult or impossible to reach out by hand and make the appropriate cut." I AM asking for you (and Dave) to name some broad leaf species that can't be properly pruned without a pole saw...

And yes we have all come across individual trees that really can't be climbed out to the tips for whatever reason.. And we all are attempting to do the best job we can with our given set of skill and eqipment. So we all need a pole saw from time to time. It just that some companies and climbers have a SOP of setting a low tie in point, walking around the interior of the tree with a pole saw and hacking away at the tips with a bunch of sloppy cuts, then wacking off a few big limbs on the trunk on their way down. And they think they are pruning a tree properly. I've seen them as I drive down the road, and at arborday, and I see the results of their work all the time in the field.

My point is for all the readers here to know that that is subprime arboticulture and to know that there is a better way. And the better way is to learn how to climb, by using the new school climbing technology, footlocking, setting a high tie in point, planning your routes etc.. It is faster, easier, and it yields better results. That is how the world's top climber climb and once you achieve that level of climbing proficiency, a pole saw just gets in your way. You are moving so fast from point to point in a tree that it would take a lot longer if you had to be constantly repositioning the pole saw.

 

[appalachianarbo]

It just that some companies and climbers have a SOP of setting a low tie in point, walking around the interior of the tree with a pole saw and hacking away at the tips with a bunch of sloppy cuts, then wacking off a few big limbs on the trunk on their way down. And they think they are pruning a tree properly.

Excellent point.

Most of the deadwood I remove is in the lower end of most trees out here in PA.

name some broad leaf species that can't be properly pruned without a pole saw...

Construction damage is the #1 cause of deadwood around these parts, and much of it is out on the tips. These trees are near impossible without a polesaw, even with the highest TIP.

Don't get me wrong, I love hanging upside down to get that one piece way out there, but sometimes a polesaw is the only way.

 

[D Mc]

Dan, I guess the biggest thing I object to is your insistance that climbing technique somehow will translate into a better arboricultural end product. Certainly it is helpful, but it is not the whole truth. Some of the most physically talented climbers I have ever seen could not prune a tree. I have seen old men on ladders and scary looking ropes doing exquisite jobs in botanical gardens. It is not the tools or the climbing technique that produces high quality tree care. It is knowledge with the skill to produce the often artistic interpretations the tree requires.

You assume that Montana is not the mecca for progressive arboriculture and I will ask you, where is that? With worldwide access, pretty much anyone, anywhere has the opportunity to learn if they so desire. It is wonderful to appreciate the accomplishments of our famous climbers but surely you realize that there are other extremely good and capable practitioners out there. As in music the ones on stage are not the only talented ones.

I spent the first 15 years of my climbing experience in Northern California with the most progressive tree company of its time, in my opinion. This was a company whose founder made the likes of Don Blair hang his mouth open in amazement with some of his innovative thinking. I was the head climber of this company in an area of arboricultural and cultural diversity that required knowledge of every aspect of what might be asked of a residential arborist. So I had a great deal of wonderful exposure.

I am a social misfit and I am not famous, and that's just fine.

With my comment on hundreds of species, I was purposely hedging my bet, because I have learned that absolute statements in arboriculture fall short of the truth. However, almost any species, excurrent or decurrent, angiosperm, gymnosperm will at some time present a situation where a polesaw is the proper tool. No one here is saying to use it all the time as your only tool.

I do agree that it appears that bad pruning practices are epidemic. And these need to be addressed.

Dave

 

[S Mc]

I try very hard not to go with preconceived impressions or prejudicial thoughts, as life has taught me how wrong that so often is. If I had only searched for further education through "meccas of arboriculture" I might have missed the fact that the University of No. Dakota has an excellent program in Urban Forestry with a professor who is extremely knowledgeable. I am learning a great deal from this gentleman through his program in a state where the standing joke, apparently, is the sign that states "Prevent forest fires, keep our tree green".

We have many trees in this area with tip die back. (I wasn't aware that was a phenomena only here in Montana. However, evidently Appalachianardo also sees it in Texas.) Many times you only want to take off the dead wood, no live wood. So you go up as high as you can. If you can reach everything, well and good; if not, the pole saw gets sent up. Other instances may be when someone has thinned out the tree too much in the past, leaving heavy tips. In order to bring the tree back into some kind of balance, tip work may have to be done. Again, you go up as high as you can and work from there. If you cannot reach everything, the pole saw gets sent up. We also have many clients in the forest interface. Many of these pines suffer from Elytroderma deformans with associated witches brooming. They may wish to have the brooming removed; most often at the end of the branch. It is ALOT faster to remove it with a pole saw than going out each tip. DEPENDING on the tree.

Part of your post seems to show you get this, and part of it doesn't. So I don't know what else to say. Instead of supplying a complete list, let me cite a few species specific examples. It really doesn't take a great deal of insight to be able to see where these scenarios may present themselves with many species of trees.

Example: Betula pendula with tip die back due to a combination of abiotic disorders and the bronze birch borer. Client does not want the entire tree removed; but instead only deadwood to buy as much time as possible and make the tree safer. Birches are very fragile; their limbs can be extremely long and yet the dead tip may be a small one at the very end. Do you leave it because the branch will not support you? Or do you get out the pole saw and skillfully remove the dead tip.

Example: An Acer platanoides has been overthinned in the past by having its interior limbs removed in a misguided effort to allow more light to reach the ground for grass to grow. Norway maples like to be thick; they are going to get even thicker on the tips. To keep thinning it out only exacerbates the problem; you need to get out to the tips to suppress apical dominance to encourage interior growth allowing increased branch taper instead of the resultant spindly and vulnerable limb structure.

You mention new school climbing technology listing footlocking as one of those techniques. I must be mistaken here, I thought that was one of the oldest methods out there. David uses the Big Shot (new technology) to set his line with the new throw bags, he uses the Lockjack or the VT (new technology) for work positioning. He sampled various SRT systems (all new technology in the equipment used) until he decided upon a preferred system.

Speed is a very relative term. Quality work is quality work; bad skill is just that...as others have said, if you do not have the skill to do good work, it doesn't matter what tool you are using.

Sylvia

 

[murphy4trees]

check this out Sylvia

http://arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=11449&page=5&highlight=shot

post #68 from your "knowledgeable professor" reads:
"Daniel,

Thanks for the heads up on keeping the sling on the bottom side. I never thought about that approach. Just got a box with the Big Shot in it when I ordered and had no idea how it was supposed to be used. Figured it was like the old wrist rocket from the 60's and used it accordingly. Educators learn the same way anyone else does. That is why I keep reading this and other sites. Guess I never saw anyone shoot it from the bottom side, or just wasn't paying attention. It would make it easier to keep the line straight than being sure each time that it is over the center of the Y.

Thanks again. Keep me honest

Bob U."

He must have deleted his earlier post with a pic of one of his students about to take her nose off with the Big Shot.. I thought it synchronistic that you mentiuoned Bob U and the Big Shot in the same post.. No disrepect to Bob.. He sounds like a great teacher, and I would bet dave learned mopre about progressive climbing from 2 months in Northern Ca. than any of Bob's 4 year students learned from him. That is just the way of the world.

You also mentioned Norway Maple, which is interesting becasue I would say that around here that is the number one example of species that are improperly pruned with a pole saw when they could be pruned much better by climbing...

I hope everyopne here can forgive me for sounding cantancerous when I say the following:
Thanks for taking the time to provide those examples of tree species that require a pole saw to prune properly.. Those are three good examples, though I was really looking for species that require pole saw pruning under normal conditions... Now you only have another 197 to go to make "literally hundreds" of species.

Alright... forgive me please... I'll let it go now... I think we've all made our points, and each perspective has value to the readers here..
So can we all call this horse dead now?

That is unless we ever get a picture or follow up report on the willow oak that started this thread..