Pulling with Trucks, Tractors, and Tanks

[Lumberjack]

I use a truck, or a tractor, to pull over trees to pull over trees all the time. I understand about the concern that a tractor could break a rope no problem, but if you cut the notch, preload the line, and then cut to your hinge, then pull the tree over, you would put no more stress on the rope if you were pulling it over using men and block and tackle, except for a possible difference of acceleration, but that would be negotiable. Where you can get in trouble is if you snatch it, or if you floor it to get it goin after you preload the line.


When I am cutting a tree with a lean over a house or whatever, I cut my notch. Then I use the truck or tractor to pull the tree slightly, to make the trees lean mostly offset with the rope. Then I proceed to make the backcut. The truck doesn't add any more pull until I give the command. I cut the tree all the way to the hinge and then tell the truck to pull over the tree.

I have done this for 12 years without a problem with getting the tree to go the right way. I started with my dad when I was 5 driving the tractor to pull over trees on our property.

Another thing that can screw you up is i the rope is to short and you didn't redirect it. That has happened to me once and my dad once. His miscalculation sent the tree over the tractor, he jumped off and the tractor started to crawl up another tree. He wasn't thinking that day. He was doing this by himself. About a year or so ago, I was working by my self and I started to cut the tree, I planned to pull the tree over uing a short chain 20' or 40' long and turn out of the way. It almost worked until it came over faster than I moved and it grazed the boxblade, nothing major, just a little off the plan (by far!!)

Anyway just because a truck or tractor has enough power to break any rope normally used, you don't have to use all the power, meter it out. You can start a truck without spinning a tire, so meter it out, and it is safe.

Carl

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

You're so nasty, you're saying "Power is Power"? And judicious use........?

Truck Pull Thread

 

[TREETX]

TROLL

This sounds like cut and pray....

How come so many of us are able to remove trees and never need to pull with a tractor or a truck

If you need that much pull and the tree has the structural integrity to take that much pull, there are other ways.

if you floor it to get it goin after you preload the line

This makes me think WTF??

I use pulleys for MA when pulling a tree. After it starts to go over, you lose all ability to pull with a pulley system. You are dillusional if you think you can "get er goin'" after the hinge starts to work.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

It's perfectly safe, yet he talls of two times someone was almost killed.

 

[TREETX]

Originally posted by Mike Maas
It's perfectly safe, yet he talls of two times someone was almost killed.

This one time at band camp.........

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

The point about being able to overpower the line etc. are good.

Any power source can be used to apply more leveraged pull on the hinge; the backcut can determine slow/powerfull or fast/strong from that leveraged force; just as any other machine rearranging the power to speed ratio with the available force.

Many things we pull, by whatever source of pull; are not to enable the direction of the fall; but for the strength of the hinge for a slower, more controlled fall.

Especially something with only 10 degree lean, as it starts to fold on it's own it has only 17% of the leveraged possible pull on the hinge, so likewise at folding makes ~a matching strength hinge to ride out the increasing leveraged pull as the tree falls. But the leveraged pull will increase 475% above that set strenght of the hinge. Pulling hard with high leverage can force earlier folding of a stronger hinge (more fiber); which is especially critical for giving more hinge strength in leans less than 30deg. (1 o'clock). At 20 degrees lean the numbers look a lot friendlier, but still the tree hinge starts matching a given leveraged load, then is put to increasing leveraged loads. The lower the lean, the more dramatic the differance between set hinge strength at folding and loads it will incur on the arc of its path. Excel ' Leverage Lean Calculator' at TB.

Pulling for direction is in there too , but mostly we go for strengthening the hinge more, by artificially loading the hinge to the point of bending; then the line pull comes off after the strenght of the hinge is increased; with the rope pull removed, tree has stronger hinge with less load; but then facing increasing leveraged pull as it falls; but all you can do is prepare it for that, the best ya can. So i have found for some things more pull, placed at higher leverage to be better. But when playing with power; judicious use is always best......

When rigging horizontals in the tree, sometimes the leveraged line support is so tight while still connected i can back off and and guys can lower with total control, having to force tearoff at the end by a lil impact at the end. The line takes so much load off the hinge it is butterfly light lowering down on the line still connected to the hinge. More strength can be imbued into the hinge at the beginning by allowing a lil'impact of sudden movement at folding by giving slack, then re-catching the limb in the line. So, we loaded the hinge more to increase it's strength, then took that load off (more line support); to have a stronger hinge with lighter load; for surer control, and not allowing force to build in speed factor. The support and slow movement, also keeps the loads lower, by not adding the speed multiplier to the equation of what load the hinge faces; after the hinge's strength is set (though it does go through torquing) at folding.

So, sometimes a truck pull, isn't so much to enable an amateur to do something; as a scientific attack to do it better. IMLHO.

Orrrrr something like that......
:alien:

 

[treeman82]

I like the idea that he was helping his father to fell trees at 5 years old... REALLY safe

 

[Stumper]

Nathan, I think that it would be better to pray then cut.
The truck pull thread was a good one-made us think about what we are doing. I think that Carl should consider all the stuff we hashed out. I refuse to dismiss the truck as a tool but I use it even less than formerly. It is easy to get defensive about methods we have used. (I've been guilty). I believe that trucks and tractors can be used safely and judiciously but if a person doesn't understand the mechanics of felling and the dyamics of the rope they are using there is too much risk involved.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Pulling with a vehicle is usually my 2nd choice. I would rather work out whatever it takes to facilitate an easy groundhand pull.

IME, when that is called for it is usually because someone is in a hurry and they don't want to take the time. That is not always a bad thing. I just hate to take unnecessary chances unless it is absolutely necessary.

There is always a time for everything(sorta), and pulling with a vehicle has its place. I'm more comfortable working the tree out to where the pulling of the groundman is more an aid to the natural action of gravity.

But I have done some krazy sheet!

 

[SilverBlue]

Hey Mon... thier agreeing with ya on the "I need some help" thread, your missing all the glory!

 

[MasterBlaster]

Missing all the glory...

The story of my life!

 

[Ax-man]

LJ

How about telling us what size trees your pulling over. Standard pick-up trucks and tractors can easily over power a heavy leaner if it's 24" and under, especsially with a proper notch and backcut with a pretensioned rope.


Trucks and tractors will only get you so far, till you reach a point of diminishing returns in terms of power, especially on a big tree trying to pull against a lean. Your chances for success also diminish.

A good winch is a smarter solution than a truck or tractor.

 

[SilverBlue]

How about weight of tree verse weight of vehicle as an anchor?

 

[xander9727]

I routinely use a tractor to "direct trees" when clearing land. I use 3/4" super-braid plus to pull with. With a 17000+# strength rating I would have to seriously miscalculate to break it. I also use a tractor pull tops out that have an unfavorable lean. In these cases a couple of guys could provide enough pull but I feel the tractor is an added safety factor. Please do not misunderstand, I rarely drop trees whole unless I am clearing lots. Quite often after the branches and top are removed the spar has an unfavorable lean. I used to use block and tackle and/or wedges but I have found the tractor is more predictable and efficient. With a tractor I can leave a slightly thicker hinge to better control the fall. Like any other piece of equipment there are limitations and usage guidelines that one must observe. Trial and error is rarely the best method of determining limits. With trigonometry and some physics one can easily figure out what a tractor and rope cannot do. Reduce these numbers by 20 or 30 percent and you begin to develop safe working limits. I utilize calculus to figure out more envolved rigging scenarios. I generally will reduce the limits by 30 percent to ensure safety and success. I can only think of two times I've ever even come close to these numbers. If the tree is that big I'll use a different technique or rent a crane. Tractors definately have their place in tree work but they aren't always the best or only answer.
I do not like using trucks to pull for two reasons. First they are often difficult to position in a customers yard (not to mention the damage the can do to a lawn). Second trucks cannot pull as predictable or as hard (without wheel spin or slipping) as a tractor with front assist. My tractor weighs 8000+#, more with the bucket full .
My $.02

 

[Lumberjack]

I will respond in order.


You're so nasty, you're saying "Power is Power"? And judicious use........?


Yes if you pull with 1000 pounds using 6 guys, or 1 truck it is still 1000 pounds

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quote:
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if you floor it to get it goin after you preload the line
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This makes me think WTF??


This make me think that you need to improve your reading skills
I said:

Where you can get in TROUBLE is if you snatch it, or if you floor it to get it goin after you preload the line.

If you floor it then you will break the rope, you must add the power gradualy.

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I use pulleys for MA when pulling a tree. After it starts to go over, you lose all ability to pull with a pulley system. You are dillusional if you think you can "get er goin'" after the hinge starts to work

If you make 1000 pounds with MA or with a truck it is still 1000 pounds. Your rope must overcome the same thing either way, as long as you DO NOT SNATCH IT it will pull over with the same (about) power as with you MA (Wich I have)

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It's perfectly safe, yet he talls of two times someone was almost killed


Yea I said that if it wasn't redirected, or the rope was to short then yea the tree will fall on you. Like I also said it was a while ago and we were both alone with no help.


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I think if I understand The Tree Spyder, we are both talking about the same thing I think.

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I like the idea that he was helping his father to fell trees at 5 years old... REALLY safe

Some of use didn't grow up in the city and aren't such *******. Also I don't think that we started out on the critical stuff, just a guess, we probably started in the open where it didn't matter until I got the hang of it.


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Nathan, I think that it would be better to pray then cut.
The truck pull thread was a good one-made us think about what we are doing. I think that Carl should consider all the stuff we hashed out. I refuse to dismiss the truck as a tool but I use it even less than formerly. It is easy to get defensive about methods we have used. (I've been guilty). I believe that trucks and tractors can be used safely and judiciously but if a person doesn't understand the mechanics of felling and the dyamics of the rope they are using there is too much risk involved.


Ah, yes I do understand


____________________________________________________



Pulling with a vehicle is usually my 2nd choice. I would rather work out whatever it takes to facilitate an easy groundhand pull.

IME, when that is called for it is usually because someone is in a hurry and they don't want to take the time. That is not always a bad thing. I just hate to take unnecessary chances unless it is absolutely necessary.

There is always a time for everything(sorta), and pulling with a vehicle has its place. I'm more comfortable working the tree out to where the pulling of the groundman is more an aid to the natural action of gravity.

But I have done some krazy sheet!


Agreed, but like you and I have talked about only 2 of my groundies are smart.

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LJ

How about telling us what size trees your pulling over. Standard pick-up trucks and tractors can easily over power a heavy leaner if it's 24" and under, especsially with a proper notch and backcut with a pretensioned rope.


Trucks and tractors will only get you so far, till you reach a point of diminishing returns in terms of power, especially on a big tree trying to pull against a lean. Your chances for success also diminish.

A good winch is a smarter solution than a truck or tractor


Yes, I have a 9000 pound remote mount winch. It is better in some senarios, but it isn't always easy for me to tell when I am loading with the winch how much of its load capacity I am using. I have used the winch though on several takedowns.


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How about weight of tree verse weight of vehicle as an anchor?

A better question in my opion would be weight of lean vs weight of vehicle, as you aren't trying to pull over the weight of the tree just enough to counterbalance the lean.

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Xander 9727 I understand what you are saying, but calculus for me is next semester. I use 3/4" double braid rated to 19k. I also use redirects to get the best pull angle, and normally I can get my truck the same places as the tractor, but the tractor can outpull the truck many x's over!

 

[Lumberjack]

How about telling us what size trees your pulling over. Standard pick-up trucks and tractors can easily over power a heavy leaner if it's 24" and under, especsially with a proper notch and backcut with a pretensioned rope.

The biggest with a 1/2 ton 2wd was a 3' x 75-80' pine with a slight (read small) lean toward the house. However the limbs put more of a weight away from the house.

The biggest witha 3/4 ton 4wd was a 3' x 50' oak with a good lean (read more than small less than "How is that still standing?") and a majority of the limbs over the house. I put a pulley in the top for close to 2/1 MA.

The biggest for the tractor (45hp 4wd) who knows it's been a while since I used a tractor to pull over anything big.


Carl

 

[murphy4trees]

I met a tree guy here in Va.... He's only been in business a year or two.. nice guy and he's given me a lot of stump grinding referals... Called him tonight and he told the "tree went the wrong way and hit the house story.... cause the guy driving wasn't paying attention"...
That said I like using a truck to pull when conditions are right... Gotta have a good understanding of all pieces of the equation... hinge.. wood properties etc...
Anyone who has insomnia can read the old "truck pull" thread...
I never did get an answer as to how much weight a truck can pull, though I guess it would be in excess of the truck's weight...
Related to power, tires and surface conditions....

 

[Lumberjack]

Also what angle the rope comes to the TIP on the truck if it is comming in like this above the horizonal axis of the truck then it reduces it somewhat because it lifts the truck at the TIP. Conversly if you can pull belove the horizon then you would add traction in a 2wd (if pulling from the rear) and probably in a 4wd.

 

[Stumper]

Good point in the last post Carl.

Daniel, I don't know the ultimate answers-as Carl mentioned the rope angles are going to have an effect. FWIW, Many years ago I did a bunch of pulling with some rope which was rated as 3400 lb tensile- new. Even when it was well worn I found that a 2wd Pick-up would break traction rather than breaking the rope it there was no impacting of the line. That doesn't tell us how much pressure a 6000 lb truck can apply but presumably it is less than 3400lbs with steady pulls. In actual practice I like to monitor rope stretch.The manufacturors are kind enough to provide figures for various loads-typically percent of stretch with 200lbs, 800lbs, and an elongation at rupture figure. If the rope stretchs 1.5% under 200lbs of tension, 4.5% under 800lbs of tension and ruptures at 20% elongation then advancing a 100ft section 6' after removing the slack while noting a 2ft shift in the tree's top at the tie in point lets us know that we are exerting a bit less than 800lbs and are in no danger of breaking the rope.

 

[geofore]

traction

Maybe this will add traction to the truck, put a load in the truck to give it weight to get more traction before you start your pull. That would even make the truck heavier as an anchor if you use the truck for that.

The other thread may take time to read, is saving your a$$ on the job worth the time? Yes!