Question about Saw Fuel

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Gypo Logger

Timber Baron
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Hi There, I have been giving fuel some thought lately and here is my question: If a saw is ran at say 13,500 rpm with Gold pump gas, than what advantage would there be to racing gas if the same saw was run at the same rpm regardless of the fuel that is used? Could it possibly be the heat that is created by the different fuels or preignition considerations?
John
 
Howdy,

The heat energy in different gasolines (auto) is essentially the same. The only difference is that higher octane burns slower, and therefore delivers more useable power with less damage to the engine components. It also gives the engine a better and more distributed chance to cool itself.

When we start talking formulated fuels or gas other than auto, then things get tricky. The entire stoicometeric (air/fuel) ratio can be different, requiring different tunning and/or carburetion. You can get into big trouble here.

The extreem is diesel, which has some 27% more heat energy available than gasolene. Now please don't try to burn that in your chainsaw, unless it is a Jonsereds "Raket". (Now there is a real collector's item!)

Regards,
Walt Galer
 
Fuel

I new to post not sure if I posted this proper I have used leaded aircraft fuel many times it's clean 100 octane and it burns cool no problems other than it smells different
Originally posted by Walt Galer
Howdy,

The heat energy in different gasolines (auto) is essentially the same. The only difference is that higher octane burns slower, and therefore delivers more useable power with less damage to the engine components. It also gives the engine a better and more distributed chance to cool itself.

When we start talking formulated fuels or gas other than auto, then things get tricky. The entire stoicometeric (air/fuel) ratio can be different, requiring different tunning and/or carburetion. You can get into big trouble here.

The extreem is diesel, which has some 27% more heat energy available than gasolene. Now please don't try to burn that in your chainsaw, unless it is a Jonsereds "Raket". (Now there is a real collector's item!)

Regards,
Walt Galer
 
this jonsey raket (eng. rocket) - does this saw really use diesel. i have never even heard of such a saw - must be a cool saw!
 
Otto...all saws are cool.
P.S. I think I am suffering from "Stoicometric Dekal Tundraotto Rekat":blob2:

Keep the loggs flying...Rick
 
Gas FAQ

http://www.netmeg.net/faq/recreation/autos/gasoline-faq/01.html

Read this.

It should clear up some opinions and questions.

Basically you get no benifit from using higher octane gas, unless you don't run a high enough octane already.

In reality the only thing you would need race fuel for is if your compression ratio was over 10:1. Otherwise Pump gas can handle it.

Octane has noting to do with flame speed. It deals with the ingintion process. Just because a fuel is harder to ingnite does not mean that it doesn't burn fast.

That brings up another point, Different brands of gas can burn at different rates and have different heating values. Just because somebodies 92 octane has x BTU's doesn't mean that joes 92 octane down the street has the same amount of heating value. Basically all fuel comes from a refinery as a basic grade of fuel, ( no additives), then the different companies add chemicals to that base stock to make it 92, 94 octane and so on. Sunoco's additives might by different than say shell or whoever else. With that, two gas stations side by side will offer you very different fuels. Yet they still burn and act pretty much the same.


Anyhow, if you read the FAQ and still have questions, post em.

Later
Harley
 
gotta agree with harley on one point: all gas is the same crap before additives are added - heres the difference - fuel trucks off all sorts of oil companies fill at the same ???? refineries. the additives, now thats the difference, i hear that texaco has good ones and chevron.

now about the flame speed....i think harley is thinking something different. higher octane ignites slower allowing for more even combustion of more fuel in the combustion chamber resulting in more even gas pressure created by the burned fuel...this results in a more even combustion (as opposed to pinging which results when the fuel ignites "unevenly" and causes more than one uniform pressure increase in the combustion chamber). the pinging with too low of an octane is caused by several ignitions of the same batch of gasoline igniting more than once due to the easier ignitability of lower octane gasoline - here results the so called holed pistons - the crankshaft may be on its downturn and coming up while the low octane gasoline keeps igniting in several different pockets in the comb. chamber and causing several ignitions while the piston is moving up.

then again - i might be a complete armchair scientist and this may all be wrong so im writing this disclaimer so nobody can make me look any more stupid.:D
 
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Here's what I was getting at above.


When the piston compresses the air fuel mix, we create heat from compressing the gas. When the air fuel mix reaches a certain temp( by compression ) the fuel air mix ignites. If this temp is reached, and the mix ignites before the spark plug fires, its called preignition.

However, when the spark plug fires ( no Pre-ignition ) and the mix begins to burn, it expands greatly( addition of heat to a gas=increase in volume). When the flame front expands it compresses the unburned portion of the mix left in the combustion chamber. If the yet unburned portion of the mix is near the point of ignition( because of the initial compresstion ), it is possible for this second compression to bring the temperature up, and ignite the unburned mix. Now you have two flame fronts converging on each other. When they meet, a pressure spike is created. The spike is highly detrimental to engine parts. This is known as detonation.
If it is mild, possibly only bearings are harmed, if severe, anything is possible. I.e. new ports in your cylinder, piston, etc..

The temperature at which a fuel will begin to break down and ignite is refered to as the Autoignition Temperature . This temperature is different for different octane grades of gasoline. This is the most useful bit of information that you could have about a fuel, except that its often to difficult for people to comprehend when they buy gas. Also, unless you do the math of how much your compressing the mix, and how much temperature you are generating, its fairly unrelatable and usless.

When you have a higher octane fuel ( higher autoignition temp ), it is harder to ignite by deffinition. Temperature being the energy "measure", it takes more temperature to ignite, thus more energy. However, when ignited it burns with "approximately" the same flame speed and liberates roughly the same amount of energy.

Will you have problems starting your saw? NO. The difference in the energy required for ignition is much less than the overabundance of energy that the ignition system of your saw produces. Problems with igniting the mix only become a problem at higher compression ratios ( 14:1 and over ) and race gas.

If you understand, knod your head. If not, read it a couple of times, and read the FAQ, then post questions.

I know the FAQ is long, but you can read the table of contents and then skip to whatever part your interested in.

I hope no one jumped out of a window after reading this

Also, both pre-ignition and detonation are BAD. One is different from the other. Many other factors influence the the start of combustion "problems". But I'll save that for another day.

Specifically, check out part six in section 3 of the FAQ.

Later
Harley
 
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Tundraotto, I am sure you are wrong, GYPO once said (on TSF) I believe...that he was sure that all his fuel fired at "bottom dead center" and his husky never ran better with doing so. :)
 
you dont have the dual combustion chamber in your racing stihls rotax? no wonder the huskies cut quicker than stihls - i knew there was a really simple answer!!:D
 
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ok so harley you are saying the same thing? it sounds like it - however you used a lot more "elaborate" way of describing the "ingnition process" . interesting about the compression ratio though, what is the average in a saw?
 
it was my understanding that high octane ignites at a higher temperature. more stable. which helps prevent preignition due to
heat in cylinder. however i didnt think that meant that high octane burned slower. just ignites properly on the spark.
that was my understanding of how it worked. enlightenment always welcome. later now
 
Harley,
Excellent explanation. This subject is highly misunderstand and many will benefit from your posts.
Thanks.
 
Rotax Robert is right, my Huskys like to fire at BDC because I shaved off the cylinder skirt and mounted it upside down on the casing after chopping off the head and mounting it on the opposite end. It works real slick and the port timing is advanced just right.
Rock On!
 
Howdy,

I read the FAQ cited above, and must say I have a few problems with a few of the things in it, especially the last part about stability.

"Motor gasolenes may be stored up to six months". (And the contrived test procedure that follows.) Anyone who believes he can store chainsaw gas for six months, better have a charge account with his local mechanic! Personally, I tell people to mix only what they are going to use, and to not store the raw gas more than a couple weeks. At that point it should go into the car. This applies to outboard motors as well. Otherwise, fuel stabilizers must be added to the raw gas, and a mix oil used that has stabilizers in it. (Major aircooled two-cycle brands).

Yes, Jonsereds produced a Diesel chainsaw. They were sold in N. Europe, and are rare collector's items. Very few ever found their way to the US.

Regards,
Walt Galer
 
That 32:1 K2 is great, perfect insurance against heat and over reving, but is this why it is rumoured that I have a small amount of brain damage?
Frank's Blanks
 
Re: Fuel

Originally posted by Hard wood
I new to post not sure if I posted this proper I have used leaded aircraft fuel many times it's clean 100 octane and it burns cool no problems other than it smells different

I was told by our local saw shop owner that aircraft fuel has different additives than regular gas, and that is would hurt the saw eventually. Has anyone heard of that before?
 
fuel has different additives than regular gas, and that is would hurt the saw eventually. Has anyone heard of that before?
Sounds like your shop owner doesnt have a clue what he is talking about. Many of the smaller brand race fuel makers use av gas as a feedstock because of its high alkalate content and its consitancy. BTW 100 LL av gas is not 100 octane as it is rated on the lean/rich mix scale which is completley differant from the R+M/2 method used to rate pump fuels.
 
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