Question for the loggers

[timberwolf]

How do you guys go about estimating the value of standing timber?

For example (hypothetical) I am trying to estimate what I should recieve as a land owner for the timber on 35 acers of fairly mature bush 75% white cedar 10-14" 15% mature spruce and balsm and 10% mixed hardwood.

Any legal implications to bring someone in to log (here in Canada eh)?

Thanks

 

[Husky372]

if i was you i would hire a forester he will pay for himself in making sure things are done the way you want. plus you'll get more for the wood than if you try to handle the sale yourself.

 

[Ryan Willock]

Cruising timber is mostly art (i.e. experance) and a little sience. What you can't tell just from cruising a stand is wither or not the majority of trees are hollow or have heart rot. You can see windshake to some degree but cat faces..... With experance you can get a pretty good idea of what the boundry should yeild.

 

[Newfie]

What Husky said. Have a forester working for you rather than a forester who works for the mill or the logger. You'll make more money and be able to maintain a sustainable yield for future harvests.

 

[Ryan Willock]

You still need to be able to cruise the timber yourself to some degree or another.

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi TW, it all depends on what your goals are,both financial and what the woodlot will look like when it's harvested and how long it will be before it can be harvested again.
In an ideal world, it would be best for the woodlot to have a cleaning, ie, removal of lowgrade stems to encourage vigor and growth of the crop trees, meaning the ones that will be left for a future harvest.
If financial gain is your goal, than let them hammer it, because most loggers will hammer it anyway.
A good compromise is to remove the low grade and some commercial grade as well. Forests are very resilient and will make a quick comeback if overcutting isn't prescribed.
It's your call and you will get only one kick at the can if you let the wrong crew in there.
Access and terrain are the biggest determining factors in sound forest practices as is the value of it on the stump.
I would suggest you learn all you can from the MNR and/or an independant forester and accept tenders based on the marked trees.
If you opt for the lowgrade thinning you will probably have to do it yourself as I don't know too many loggers who pass up the high grade to get at the lowgrade.
Good luck, and I hope your woodlot doesn't look like a bad haircut after " Larry the Logger" has pulped it.
John

 

[Wade Huggins]

Ah!!............Gypo, again your verbage is spot on....well said!!

 

[heffayinthebush]

Hey John, for once, I couldn't agree with you more. For the last 30+ years Joe and I cut bushes for the firewood...., beech, ironwood, small ash, birch and maples. A lot of labour goes a long way.

Now we've reaped the benifits by maintaining good relationships with the land owners. These bushes we once cut are now reaping high yeild saw logs, and have excellent second and third growth stems.

I think a lot of loggers don't maintain these kind of principals which is why you see the odd the slaughter when they get the chance.

Not good business sence in my mind.

Heff
firewood.ca

 

[Ryan Willock]

Fire wood is a great way to get rid of low grade stems. I have to agree with Gypo as he is spot on!

 

[bwalker]

If minimal disturbance to the ground is important to you have the area cut in the winter. Also ask to talk to other landowners who have used the logger in question. Hack loggers will not only tear up your ground/ damage future high value trees, but also get you less value from the trees they cut.

 

[Pacific]

If you want no ground disturbance there is two words Heli logging all you need todo is pay 1000 dollars per hour for the Helicopter and another 400 dollars perday for the faller.

Seriously thou it sounds like the trees you have are small rat trees if they are only 12-14"s in diameter. I really don't know what you guys in the East class as valuable here anything less than 18" in diameter is crap. There is no firewood market for the amount of work it takes your better off piling it up in a big slash pile and burn it.

The first thing you will have todo is punch a few roads though the property so you have access. So you hire a contractor to come in and build road average cost is 100.00 per hour for a machine plus other labour charges.

I think your better off finding a good reputable small sawmill operator that will buy the wood from you. A small mill that cuts small wood is the best bet where they are in the value added market. You would have to find a contractor to come in and harvest the wood for you and a log hauler to get the wood out of the bush.

I do hope you don't figure you will make big money out of the wood you will make some you may even just break even. If you have some use for the wood some mills cut 50/50 they cut 50% of the wood for themselves and you get 50%.

You better check on your laws in your area about clearing large areas of land you will probably have togo get a timber mark (number). The CND gov't wants their cut of the profits so you better do this legally.

As the others meantioned you should get the area cruised and see if their is any timber worth anything. Experienced mill owners know what timber is worth and know what the market is like.

What do you plan on doing with this acreage ?

A stump to dump logging contractor can come in a selective log the wood or they could clear cut it and rip the stumps out and bail the brush up into big slash piles.

 

[bwalker]

Heli logging? Its non existent east in the midwest where I'm located.

The first thing you will have todo is punch a few roads though the property so you have access. So you hire a contractor to come in and build road average cost is 100.00 per hour for a machine plus other labour charges.

This is exactly the kind of lgger you do not want. Roads "punched" in everywhere devalue the property as well as the stand.

Experienced mill owners know what timber is worth and know what the market is like.

And will always lowball you. Go with a independant.

A stump to dump logging contractor can come in a selective log the wood or they could clear cut it and rip the stumps out and bail the brush up into big slash piles.

This is rarely done on the east coast unless the land is to be developed.

In short, Pacific the world is much differant outside your fish bowl. People even use Huskys and Dolmars!

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi Pacific, you have made alot of good points. So what, you guys in the West are " Hoe Chuckers", and we in the East are " Stubble Jumpers".
It all comes down who is driving the bus and who is the goat on the rope.
The trouble with the logging industry is that it is too controled by large business, so much so that whole towns are run by them.
It is small enterprise that brings things closer to home.
Some fat f#$k in an office is to often times creaming 90% off the top, while all the logger gets to keep is his "Paul Bunyan", complex. Independant operators are the way to go, but every situation is different as you have noted.
All the accessable timber is not gone yet, lets down size and not be consumed by negativity and propaganda with regards to the forest industry.
Hardwood saw timber here around the Great Lakes is worth about 100$/ton down to 12" tip dia. So who is making all the denero for the timber on the West Coast? It sure isn't the owner of the timber or the logger in most cases.
This topic is really food for thought, and I can't pretend to know what others are against across the country, but one thing I can tell you is that the operator who has the balls to control his own destany in the forest industry, go it alone and knows the markets is the one who can survive between bust and boom.
A few big Burly Hoe Chuckers in B.C. were aching to sweed bag me when I gave them the same long dissertation, but fook them if their dumber than a sack of hammers and want to buy 2 million $ worth of equipment, just to have the rug pulled out from under them. LOL
John

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi Pacific, just as a further dig, and I know you will take it for joke it is intended as. Lol
Anyone who has felled Hardwood for a living can fell any softwood with equal precision, but a faller who has only felled softwood would think they were in their first day in kindergarten if put in a hardwood bush.
However, this makes the assuption that your Fir Fer Sure are as small as our peckerpolish Bulgarian Bugwood.
John

 

[MasterBlaster]

Hey John that B &W pic is awesome, I dunno why...

I just set it as my desktop.

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi Butch, glad you like the pic, I do my best work after a beverage and a dooby, and why wouldn't I?
John

 

[Al Smith]

Timber buyers

I too,like Gypo live in the Great lakes region .In the farming area of northern Ohio, A timber buyer is about as popular as a horse thief.The stumpage price paid,is normally slightly less than the cordage amount for fire wood,not to mention the damage done to the land,and the amount taken and not paid for.The mill prices are around $2.75 to $3.00 per bdf #2 and higher for select and fine for the oaks[ red, white]. Around $ 3.00 to $4.00 for black cherry and walnut.The stumpage rates are usually 15 cents,or less,and the rascals use the doyle log scale.I am not a pro at this,I only cut 4 or 5 thousand bdf per year,but I have people call me.Many times ,the trees are given to me,or on the shares.On the shares,we split the sawing fee[ 20 cents bdf ] ,bandmill. Al

 

[ROLLIN]

Gypo, You'd be a cull on the west coast. Rollie

 

[Pacific]

When I meant roads you only need one main road it doesn't really need to be any wider than 9' wide just wide enough to get a truck down. The wood gets skidded to the side of the road a selfloading logging truck or for you easterners a chunk truck loads the wood up.

A excavator (EX-200 Hitachi size) with a hydraulic thumb and bucket can easily pull and load out logs and build some access roads. When the excavation contractors I work for clear land or selectivly logged its hand felled and moved around with a hoe.

In this area if you have a logging truck full 25-30 tons of wood then its worth it to have a property selectivly logged the lots usually are 1-3 acres.

Good red cedar with no heavy knots or heart rot will net you good money the local bandsaw mills pay top dollar for it. If you have good fir stuff that can be cut into dimensional you will also get top dollar for it. As for the rat trees like Alder and Maple you break even on no market for it. If you have Hemlock you might aswell leave it standing its only good for pulp and pulp doesn't pay anything.

As I said before find a reputable mill that you can sell the wood to its your best option. A small mill isn't going to screw you if you have good wood that they can fill their orders with. When I mean small mill they take a truck load 25 ton of logs a month or every 2 months. It will take a while to selectivly log the 35 acres but atleast you know your not going to get screwed.

The biggest problem say you have a contractor come in fall 100 to 200 tons worth of wood the only person that would take that would be a large production mill then you will get screwed. If you have something like that every load that gets shipped out should be scaled by a scaler.

If you do sell you wood to small mills that run bandsaws they usually will not buy wood thats been skidded. Imbedded dirt kills bandsaw blades if the wood is coming to them dirty they won't pay you top dollar. The felled wood in this area is chucked it doesn't matter if the lot is only a 1/4 acre to 100 acres a excavator can move alot of wood in one day.

A EX-60 Hitachi size machine with a hydraulic thumb only weighs 20,000lbs or so it can move the wood you guys have its nimble enough that you can selectivly log and not damage everything else. Logs that are picked up and put down (chucked) does less damage than a skidder dragging wood out of the bush scar'ing the other trees that you are trying to save.

The only way a home owner is going to make money on logging their property is do it themselves. Go to a auction buy some used equipment for 30 grand and go for it once you finished with it sell it.

All you would need is a old tandem axle truck you can put some bunks on it doesn't need to be road legal if your using it on your own property. A decent excavator that doesn't puke oil everywhere. The last piece of equipment a good chainsaw that will handle cutting the wood you got. If you work at it slowly you can get a truck load of wood out in a week. If you found a old donkey winch for the places you do need to skid the wood it would eliminate the need of buying a skidder. You want a winch that the excavator will pick up and move around.

 

[Husky372]

pacific alot of what you say is great info if you live on the west coast. but you really dont know anything about east coast logging. like maple being trash if its rock maple and you go running them over around here you just might get shot. as for hemlock pulp its up around here. east coast is about hardwoods. i would also imagine theres more independant loggers here than out there. i doubt very seriously he would be able to find a old donkey winch around here. like i said east coast and west coast are 2 totally differant animals jmo.