Questions for the fuel experts

[bwalker]

Here is my "system" for power equipment, both Quads, side by side, and all my power equipement.

If it's a 4 stroke deal and doesn't have one a fuel shut-off valve is installed. So my log splitter, standby generator, power washer, both quads (carbureted) have shut-offs on them. When I'm done using them I shut the fuel to the carb, and just as they die out I pull the choke. All of them dating back decades have ZERO issues with getting plugged up.

For small 2 stroke equipment, leaf blowers (3), chainsaws (about a dozen), string trimmers (2), pole saw (1), garden tiller (1) I get them fired up when I'm done with them for the season, dump the tank, and just as they stall out I pull the choke.

Next time they are placed in service they get fresh fuel and good to go.

The only piece of equipment that I use rec gas in is my boat, and only the first and last tank each season. All summer long it gets a steady diet of E-10 and flawless. Last outing of the year I run it down pretty far and top off with 90 octane non ethanol and put it away for the Winter. It's fuel injected so I don't shut the fuel off to the engine. So far zero issues.

As much of a PITA as it might appear it's not much more than a small change to the shut-down procedure for most of it.

I'd also add that equipment that I use a LOT doesn't go thru any of that as I'm moving enough fresh fuel thru it to avoid any potential issues......

For boats a Racor filter is the way to fly.

 

[Hermio]

Ethanol will pull it out of the air. All that water found in storage tanks doesn't come from the fuel itself.

In a strictly technical sense, ethanol does not "pull" water out of the air. When air contacts the fuel, the humidity in the air can cause some water to be transferred to the fuel. With pure gasoline, the water that can be held in solution is quite small; over time, some will separate out as a different layer. When ethanol is present, a much larger portion of water will remain in solution. This is why gasoline de-icers are basically just ethanol or methanol.

 

[bwalker]

In a strictly technical sense, ethanol does not "pull" water out of the air. When air contacts the fuel, the humidity in the air can cause some water to be transferred to the fuel. With pure gasoline, the water that can be held in solution is quite small; over time, some will separate out as a different layer. When ethanol is present, a much larger portion of water will remain in solution. This is why gasoline de-icers are basically just ethanol or methanol.

Ethanol is hygroscopic and Gasoline is hydrophobic. Yes, ethanol will absorb water out of the atmosphere and no, gasoline will not hold water in solution. In a strictly technical sense.

 

[Hermio]

Ethanol is hygroscopic and Gasoline is hydrophobic. Yes, ethanol will absorb water out of the atmosphere and no, gasoline will not hold water in solution. In a strictly technical sense.

Yes, it will absorb water, but will not "pull" it out of the atmosphere. The word "pull" implies that there is some force that acts over a distance. Ethanol can only absorb water when it is in direct contact with humid air.

 

[bwalker]

Yes, it will absorb water, but will not "pull" it out of the atmosphere. The word "pull" implies that there is some force that acts over a distance. Ethanol can only absorb water when it is in direct contact with humid air.

First of all I used the word absorb, not pull in my second post. Although in a basic sense it matters not to this discussion.
Look up the definition of hygroscopic and get back with me. It's as exactly as I described.
And ethanol will absorb water right through a plastic container. More likely with a fuel tank, but also with cans. Likewise light ends certainly leach through plastic cans and tanks. Ducati had a lawsuit against them years ago for plastic tanks distorting because they had so much water in them they swelled. I'm not talking in the tank itself by within the plastic.

 

[Hermio]

First of all I used the word absorb, not pull in my second post. Although in a basic sense it matters not to this discussion.
Look up the definition of hygroscopic and get back with me. It's as exactly as I described.
And ethanol will absorb water right through a plastic container. More likely with a fuel tank, but also with cans. Likewise light ends certainly leach through plastic cans and tanks. Ducati had a lawsuit against them years ago for plastic tanks distorting because they had so much water in them they swelled. I'm not talking in the tank itself by within the plastic.

I am well aware of the definition of hygroscopic. As I have said before, I am a Chemical Engineer who has published 45 technical articles and two books. I agree that ethanol is hygroscopic. My objection was the use of the word "pull". Words are tools, and I believe in using them precisely.

 

[iowa_jim]

I am well aware of the definition of hygroscopic. As I have said before, I am a Chemical Engineer who has published 45 technical articles and two books. I agree that ethanol is hygroscopic. My objection was the use of the word "pull". Words are tools, and I believe in using them precisely.

I propose an alternate explanation. Water and alcohol are miscible, while water and oil* are not. And of course, alcohol and oil are miscible.

When we consider the liquid/ gas interface, gas phase water molecules that pass near an alcohol molecule have an opportunity to adsorb, thereby entering the liquid state. As such, ethanol/ gasoline fuel blends have the "ability" to absorb water from the air.

 

[Hermio]

I propose an alternate explanation. Water and alcohol are miscible, while water and oil* are not. And of course, alcohol and oil are miscible.

When we consider the liquid/ gas interface, gas phase water molecules that pass near an alcohol molecule have an opportunity to adsorb, thereby entering the liquid state. As such, ethanol/ gasoline fuel blends have the "ability" to absorb water from the air.

That is absolutely correct.

 

[Patrick62]

Look around and see if you can find a airport that will sell you some avgas

 

[Hermio]

Look around and see if you can find a airport that will sell you some avgas

Careful with that. My understanding is that avgas is usually leaded. If so, you do not want to use it. You will get lead poisoning.

 

[Patrick62]

Careful with that. My understanding is that avgas is usually leaded. If so, you do not want to use it. You will get lead poisoning.

Yes it does. they call it 100LL, low lead. max of 2.12 grams per gallon.
quick poke of calculator, by weight, .00078
it ain't much.
they leave just enough tetra ethyl lead in there to keep the valves alive in the older engines.

In ancient (50 years ago?) history it was used as a octane boost, and at a MUCH higher concentration.
That stuff could not have been good for us, at that level.

However, outside, with a small engine, at this low level, it won't bother you.
I have been running avgas for years, no problems (expensive tho)

 

[OM617YOTA]

Look around and see if you can find a airport that will sell you some avgas

Yes it does. they call it 100LL, low lead. max of 2.12 grams per gallon.
quick poke of calculator, by weight, .00078
it ain't much.
they leave just enough tetra ethyl lead in there to keep the valves alive in the older engines.

In ancient (50 years ago?) history it was used as a octane boost, and at a MUCH higher concentration.
That stuff could not have been good for us, at that level.

However, outside, with a small engine, at this low level, it won't bother you.
I have been running avgas for years, no problems (expensive tho)

100LL is only low lead compared to 130 octane avgas, it's still far more lead than was put in car gasoline back in the day. It's also exhausting right where you're breathing. We're only just now realizing how bad lead was for folks back then. No thank you.

Between the cost of avgas, the hassle to get it, and the cost of two stroke oil, you might as well burn TruFuel at that point. If you're burning enough fuel for cost to be a consideration, ethanol pump gas will be fine, just don't store your equipment on it.

 

[bwalker]

Look around and see if you can find a airport that will sell you some avgas

Have fun huffing lead and bromide.

 

[bwalker]

100LL is only low lead compared to 130 octane avgas, it's still far more lead than was put in car gasoline back in the day. It's also exhausting right where you're breathing. We're only just now realizing how bad lead was for folks back then. No thank you.

Between the cost of avgas, the hassle to get it, and the cost of two stroke oil, you might as well burn TruFuel at that point. If you're burning enough fuel for cost to be a consideration, ethanol pump gas will be fine, just don't store your equipment on it.

If one ever looks at the exhaust on an air craft ran on 100LL they would note the exhaust is covered in white lead oxide. If you run 100LL you're breathing that stuff.

 

[bwalker]

Careful with that. My understanding is that avgas is usually leaded. If so, you do not want to use it. You will get lead poisoning.

You won't get lead poisoning from running it through a chainsaw, but the lead will be ingested and it will effect you. Then it will hide out in your bones for decades. It's really not worth exposing yourself too.

 

[Patrick62]

The only other option that I have considered, is to run down to Denver, and get some race gas


don't go to a race track. those first three, are leaded racing fuel. the lead content is a lot higher in these than the avgas.
The unleaded stuff in there has some appeal tho...

Where I am, the wind is usually blowing, atleast some. Might help a little with exposure.

 

[bwalker]

The only other option that I have considered, is to run down to Denver, and get some race gas
View attachment 1168501

don't go to a race track. those first three, are leaded racing fuel. the lead content is a lot higher in these than the avgas.
The unleaded stuff in there has some appeal tho...

Where I am, the wind is usually blowing, atleast some. Might help a little with exposure.

I would just stick to non ethanol pump fuel or canned fuel ment for O P E.

 

[Lightning Performance]

Not so easy if you have trucks, cars, machines, saws, blowers, trimmers, log splitter etc.! Maybe 30–40 of them total! In fact, you can't keep up, it would be a full-time job. What do I do with 10 or 15 gallons of water -gas that came from just one truck?

Put it aside for me to come pickup when you have a drum full.

 

[Lightning Performance]

New fuel is less volatile than the older stuff. It's all about evaporative emmissions. And high volatility components are really a good thing in regards to a two cycle as it pertains to starting.
Your comments on Stabil overstatingbits effects are spot on. The refinery unit I work in produces a gasoline range stream that is 89-90 RON octane, but thatbis very unstable. As a result we blend in a industrial strength Stabil like product with it as it goes to blending. Fuel stabilizers have a fairly narrow range where they are effective. In other words if 2 ounces per gallon is adequate, 5 ounces won't do anything more.
I think it's a really bad idea to store gasoline, period. For starters it's a fire Hazzard and no matter what you do it's degraded.
For things like emergency generators where you have to store fuel I would go with propane or if I had to use gasoline I would use 100LL aviation fuel.

So you think anything we don't have to breathe the exhaust fumes it can be filled with LL100 for long term use up to two years?
This has been my go to for about fifteen years.
Switching to marine grade fuel in everything hand held. It won't store as long but should provide adequate RON or octane for atleast a year. E free.

 

[bwalker]

So you think anything we don't have to breathe the exhaust fumes it can be filled with LL100 for long term use up to two years?
This has been my go to for about fifteen years.
Switching to marine grade fuel in everything hand held. It won't store as long but should provide adequate RON or octane for atleast a year. E free.

Yes, stuff like gen sets and the like are fine.