Rescue Techniques

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TREETX

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http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/dorena/phot...ate=climb&cat=climb&subcat=2000&photo=215.jpg



What the ????

What would you do differently??

I'm glad this is a rescue pic and not a climbing techns pic. I recommend not climbing with a 250lb guy strapped to you (sweet pink and lime by the way).

So, it is a rescue. If you are rescuing a guy, why like this?? Is he sending him down attached to him?? Are both his feet on the same side as that limb.

This is pretty comical.:confused:

Always use your ladder to rescue http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/dorena/phot...pple_springs_2002&photo=020612adam_clyde4.jpg

All I can guess is that these are more forestry research climbing applications than arboricultural ones. I'll put the sarcasm away now.:rolleyes:
 
yea it definitly looks like the guy is gonna get a limb in the crotch.....doh.

in the other pic.... granted their is no shock load. but isnt the biner tri loaded? plus it's a had to see in the pic,,,,but is there any kind of device in the guys break hand?
 
Why do people insist on using their friends and collages
as rescue dummies in training?
Is that extra realism worth the risk?
It is quite common over here as well.
 
http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/dorena/phot...mb&subcat=tallahassee_2002&photo=Mvc-015s.jpg

I found that cruising through the site as well. What interests me is the fact that those guys are being lowered by their backs as opposed to the front attachment points that you would normally find on a climbing saddle. I remember several years back I had attended a basic aerial rescue seminar put on by Bartlett. If my memory serves me correctly you want to be face to face with the person if you are going to attach them to you. Either that, or just go up and lower them down on their own line; either by climbing hitch, or lowering device on the ground.
 
It's an example of teaching for the sake of teaching.

All situations are not pre-scripted, no reality of moment can be prepped ahead of time. Comfort and efficiency comes from training but when an accident happens it's mostly a call of what's needing done at the time. I believe many people will freeze or abandon an effort to help unless some sort of comfort and knwledge ahead of time is practiced and agreed upon - but it still boils down to what a person has inside themselves vs. what sort of pathology a person might exhibit in times of trauma.

The bravest, most "prepared" infantryman I knew all during training became the fastest-melting butter pat under duress I ever hope to not be around again in another trying situation. The scardest softy I knew at Corpsman training became the bravest soul I ever met when reality set in - the USFS training seminars to me (years ago) were pure unadulterated bull pucky, designed to uphold guidelines and excuse future litigation, but did nothing but entertain us and provide a false sense of security (like airport searches). When accidents happen, remain calm and think, an ability I'm afraid is becoming extinct in this world of American Idol and Makeover's for selfless poor-image people.

Have extra gear, expect the unexpected, and feel for your fellow man (or woman).

I do agree though, that practice with a fat man makes one stronger!!
 
I just attended a one day Arbormaster seminar on tree worker emergency preparedness, (aerial rescue). I recommend this training to all. The information/training is top notch, even the local fire department showed up to watch.
 
82,

There is no set protocol for facing or not facing the patient. Depending on the mechanism of injury, the rescuer needs to adjust their technique. This is a very complex issue that our industry does a really poor job of preparing the climbers for.

Using live patients is one of THE WORST parts of any AR training session. If the pro rescuers don't use people why are us amatuers?

I think one of the best practices to implement to reduce the climbers exposure to danger is an access line. If you don't want to have a seperate climbing line at a minimum leave a throwline in place. In case of a rescue a line can be quickly installed.

Tom
 
Practicing AR is great. Never thought about leaving my entry line in a tree for rescue. I usually leave it there because I am picky about how my rope is stored.

AR at the TCC was interesting to see for the first time yet a let down.

The senario was given to us - climber is unconscious, 911 has been called, and an ambulance is enroute.

The senario was NOT - you happen to come upon an injured looking guy in the tree.

To me, that means that some of the really practiced guys should have been kicked out for running in and saying "How are you? Hang in there!" then yelling, "someone call 911 and send for an ambulance"

You practiced the wrong scenario and didn't even listen!! DQ them before they hit the tree with their cute pack full o rope and ascenders. A lot of who I am complaining about are seasoned contestants.

The judges didn't even find it odd. I guess they are used to judging and after a million times, it is really a competition of how fast you can get up a tree with ascenders and a pack full of rope and bring a weight to the ground.

Maybe they wanted 911 and another ambulance for themselves??:confused:
 
I heard about the aerial rescue event at the swedish
treeclimbing championship a few years ago.
One contestant brought almost no gear with him as he
started to a ascend. When he had descended to the dummy,
people really started to wonder how he was gonna get
the dummy on the ground. Then to everyone's surprise(!)
he pulls out a knife, shouths "Stand clear!" and cuts the
dummy's lifeline. Dummy falls like a stone to the ground.
The audience stood there staring at the dummy
with their mouths wide open, the "rescuer" descended calmly,
no worries.

Wheter it was a mistake, a joke (!?) or his own, very personal,
interpretation of aerial rescue, I don't know.
Makes you wanna think twice about playing the rescue dummy
at your next AR session though :eek:.
 
hill billy
that is great.....i'm surprised he was able to climb up.....he must have been laughing so hard to him self.
 
DQ or doc points for an added request for 911? that's another silly. My understanding is that you get judges discresionary points for how you talk to the "victim".
 
No, JPS it is not. It is not good for 911 to be clogged with calls.

If you know an ambulance is on the way, why request one???

A judge would doc points if someone wasn't taking it seriously right?? How serious can someone be who won't listen to the status of the situation??

What if the situation status gave an unseeable hazard or defect in the tree??

If I am unconscious, need medical attention, and EMS is enroute, PLEASE don't waste time making another telephone call and making small talk. RESCUE!!

Then again, it is a contest to see who can get up there and get an object to the ground the fastest. If it is truly a rescue, it matters.

I heard that you should act a bit for points. I got to my victim and listened for a heart beat. I don't know CPR, what was the difference if there was or wasn't a heart beat? Get the victim down as fast and smooth as possible.

Oh yeah, climbing competition, not AR practice time or demonstration of AR skills. The show is important.
 
I'm not a big fan of AR anyways, but it is a start. I have military FA training and beleive that assesing the status (as far as any layman can) and stabalizing the person is more important than a fast descent.

Stop the bleeding is the most important thing to do after ascertainign consciouness.

If you wonder about the sillyness of the TCC, why the dorsal belay? If it is that risky, whay not go to a safer method that allows self belay and ground rescue?
 
The more I think about AR, the more I pray I never have to perform one for real or have one performed for me.

The more I think about techniques and styles, the more I realize how little my co-workers know about AR. I am not as worried about performing one as being stuck while someone else ATTEMPS to perform one. Guess I need to have a talk with them.

Still, I can't force someone to footlock. I would hate to have to wait for a body thruster.
 
If life or limb is on the line the fastest way is what I want to see. Be it a ladder or gaffs or climbing the persons downline.

I would not want to have to set a throw line....
 
Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn
If life or limb is on the line the fastest way is what I want to see. Be it a ladder or gaffs or climbing the persons downline.

I would not want to have to set a throw line....


am i reading this correctly......not possible, i must be dreaming......

you might want to delete your last post jps before i jump all over the can of worms you loosened the lid on.:D :laugh:
 
No Ken, if someone is seriously hurt I would climb a tree in gaffs if that were the fastest way to do it.

If I can hit a good crothc in onje or two throwas that will get me to them, I would do that.

If SRT up their downrope, and the TIP would hold me...

IF ever were in the situation of having to save a human life, spike wounds are not a concern. Getting to the person as fast as possible is my biggest concern at the time.

Thank God I have not been in that situation, and hope i never will. If I were it would be a buddy that was hurt.
 
ok ok i can accept that ......the fastest climbing method for the given rescue situation.......what ever it may well be.


you know what i was digging at though......??
 
I was assuming the Spike_It aspect. But it could be the throwline part.

I could see myself not being up to par on hitting a crotch with my throwball if my buddy has a chainsaw wound to his thigh.
 
I guess I should weigh in those photos, since I was an instructor at both sessions shown. This may sound defensive to some, but that is not my intention...just to clarify what is going on. We always see things that are improvable when AR training, and that is part of the process...critique, review, feedback, analysis, and suggestions to help us all figure out how to do it better. In the first photo, the rescuer attached to the rear upper D because that was available on the type of harness worn by the "victim". The rescuer is wearing one, too. These are made by Descent Control, and lots of FS climbers are comfortable using them (and lots think they are lousy, like me). The fact remains, the rescuer meets the situation as presented to him. If another type of harness is on the victim, you'd rig for that. Sure the victims' feet are on both sides of the limb, but seconds after the shot was taken, the rescuer swung him over to clear that obstacle. The rescuer is coming down with the victim. After clearing the branch he reversed both of them to be facing the tree, used his feet and legs to keep the victim away from the bole, and lowered them both together with a six bar rappel rack.

In the second photo the rescue is taking place off of a ladder because that was the climbing technique used to ascend in the first place. The work being performed by the climbers being trained was all from the ladder...installing artificial nesting cavities for red-cockaded woodpeckers, an endangered species in the SE states. The ladder was already in place, and was clearly the fastest way up to rescue. These are Swedish stacking ladders, built just for tree work. Each 3 meter section is chained around the tree and sleeves into the next section above it. The rescuer has mounted the rescue-8 with a double pass, and is controlling friction with just his hand...but there is a ton of friction with the double pass, that's why he rigged it that way...he had to feed it, not hold it back. The biner is somewhat tri-loaded. In fact, I suggested, in review mode, that the biner to the chest harness would do a better job of supporting the climber's upper body if clipped directly to the descender. I was not concerned about the loading, but perhaps I should have been...what do others think?

In both cases, and in all our AR training, the rescuer is backed up by a ground belayer. In all cases an instructor is in position to observe EXACTLY how the rigging is set up, usually in the tree, as in the first photo (above the action, out of view) or from the ground for the ladder rescue, which was 2 ladder sections up (20 feet) and I was using binoculars. I hear your concerns about live victims, and we work hard to mitigate the risks. We feel that the experience of being a victim informs each climbers' efforts as rescuer (everybody trades off turns). You work harder at protecting the victim when it's for real. And in the nearly 30 years that Region 6 of the Forest service has been following a training and certification program, with literally thousands of AR trainings, we have maintained a perfect record for safe excercises. Tom, I would argue that we are professionals at this, and have made this choice from an informed position.

82, that photo was a purpose-test of the cut resistance of a vinyl and webbing buck strap, because we had been told that they outperformed our required cable core lanyards in standing up to a saw. Turned out they were pretty resistant, at least as good as the cable. You really had to bear down and keep cutting at high speed to get through it, just like the cable core. We still require the cable core anyway.

Our work is indeed forestry, not arboriculture. We operate with very different objectives from you and your peers. And the work I specifically do is almost entirely in conifer species with strong epinastic control in their physiology...so what works for me is designed for that condition. I cannot tell you how much I have learned from you arbos, some of which has really made me a better old growth/big tree climber. Once in a great while I think my experience can add to the discussion, and nothing gives me more pleasure that to contribute, hopefully to give something back.
 
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