Residential or Powerline?

[BC WetCoast]

When you are above a three phase on a skinny tree tree that leans close to it, you may wish you had spurs on. But you have never done powerline work, so you really have no clue, maybe a few inklings, but it takes ten inklings to make a clue.

Thank you all for responding, but what I really asked was, according to your understanding of ISA rules, are these trees powerline trees because they are by a powerline, or residential trees because they are front of a residence?

I haven't done powerline work either, but I've met a lineman once.

It is my opinion, irregardless of what ISA or ANSI says, if the tree is near the powerline, and the power company is paying for the prune then spike (assuming it is faster and safer than spurless). As I stated in another thread (that probably initiated this one), the effect of the spikes is probably less than the hard pruning done to achieve powerline clearance. And yes, I know you make proper cuts, but you are taking more from the tree than would be necessary for proper tree growth.

I am often at a customers house, and they are complaining about how the power company butchered the tree. Once I talk to them about power reliability, clearance standards in the contract, pruning cuts, when branches are taken back to the stem etc, they usually look at the tree in a new light. Usually still don't like the look of the tree, but respect the need for the work to be done.

For those who feel that no tree can be spiked during a prune, I'm reminded of a Monty Python classic "Every sperm is sacred". There are too many variables in this business to make blanket statements without expecting there to be exceptions. It may be different if you are an owner with more control, but as an employee running a truck, you may not have access to necessary equipment/gear and bypassing a job is not an option. For example, inspect an old topping cut in a 140' Douglas fir. First usable branch is 80' and you have no Big Shot. Bypassing the job is not an option, so you do what you have to do.

 

[EdenT]

When you are above a three phase on a skinny tree tree that leans close to it, you may wish you had spurs on.

That looks after the grounding nicely, with a steel core lanyard or the tip of a chainsaw you would be a perfect circuit with probably far less resistance than the branch you were working on! Hope you don't reach your full potential in that situation.

On a more serious note, a clarification please clearance. In your OP are you asking about private tree's on private property, ie urban residential that approach power lines rather than ROW or street trees? At least that was my understanding.

 

[clearance]

WetCoast, that is good and thoughtfull. I know I have been blunt and somewhat mean in many of my posts about treework here. I have been frustrated and angry with some who have never done the work, and maybe with good reason. But it is no way to change opinions, or to expect understanding.

As you know, trees are pruned to specification, typically for decidous it is 5 m from the primary, 2 m from the nuetral and 1m from the tel. Conifers are pruned 3 m from the primary. It is hard and often impossible to trim decidous properly to laterals while maintaining clearance and leaving enough wood to keep the tree healthy, nevermind balanced. Conifers can be sidelimbed, much easier.

So, it can be a thankless task, to be a utility guy. Except during stormwork, then we are heroes. Take it easy, thanks for the understanding. And yeah, "God is quite irate"

 

[clearance]

That looks after the grounding nicely, with a steel core lanyard or the tip of a chainsaw you would be a perfect circuit with probably far less resistance than the branch you were working on! Hope you don't reach your full potential in that situation.

On a more serious note, a clarification please clearance. In your OP are you asking about private tree's on private property, ie urban residential that approach power lines rather than ROW or street trees? At least that was my understanding.

Actually, we do climb with steecores around power here, all the time, by law.

I am asking about private trees and other trees in a residentail setting, so street trees yes, row trees in the bush, no.

 

[EdenT]

Well I dare say that your surviving the last 25 years is a testament to the training and skills you have acquired rather than sheer dumb luck.

I find I completely agree with BC on this one. I love being able to type this on a computer thanks to my first world electricity supply. There's a hell of a lot of miles of electricity transmission line that literally billions of people depend on every day in the first world. Without it we would be living pretty primitive lives.

I am an amenity arborist so I don't have to take on this high pressure, dangerous work and I am thankful for that. When I do powerline pruning on private property I have the luxury of being able to charge the client an appropriate price to climb the tree without spikes and look after the tree as best I can which is my primary concern.

I am thankful I seldom have to deal with fallen power lines, continuous electrical outages, or fires caused by vegetation coming into contact with HV power etc.

As I have said it is a high pressure, dangerous, and usually thankless task. I think the people who would abuse you for this are small minded. It is not your, your companies or even the electricity utilities fault that these trees are treated in this manner. It's usually the loudest of your critics who in a moment of greenie fervor 20 years ago planted trees that grow to 250', 30' below a HV power line.

Thanks clearance and the other UA's on here for the work you do.

 

[outofmytree]

When you are above a three phase on a skinny tree tree that leans close to it, you may wish you had spurs on. But you have never done powerline work, so you really have no clue, maybe a few inklings, but it takes ten inklings to make a clue.

Thank you all for responding, but what I really asked was, according to your understanding of ISA rules, are these trees powerline trees because they are by a powerline, or residential trees because they are front of a residence?

Easy hoss, the stiletto crack was for lxt not for anyone else.

The street power lines I work are up 3300v so certainly enough to kill you if you get it wrong. I agree that what we call access line clearance (what you call ROW clearance) is a different game altogether. My take on tree work in general is spurs are for removals only but I can understand the need for compromise where the contract rules are based on metres cleared per hour and not pruning standards.

I am curious as to whether the US standards for pruning are the same as Australian in that AS4373 applies to amenity trees (ie trees in suburbia) and does not apply to trees in water catchment areas, national parks or designated rural areas.

As bad as spiking trees is, the way that some Western Power subbies clear UHV here is sheer madness. I will try to lay my hands on some photographs I saw recently of trees "pruned" using a flail head on a giraffe. Cuts made with tears over a metre long. Now thats butchery.

 

[lxt]

When you are above a three phase on a skinny tree tree that leans close to it, you may wish you had spurs on. But you have never done powerline work, so you really have no clue, maybe a few inklings, but it takes ten inklings to make a clue.

Thank you all for responding, but what I really asked was, according to your understanding of ISA rules, are these trees powerline trees because they are by a powerline, or residential trees because they are front of a residence?

Clearance, first off thanks for enlightening our australian counterpart that he is ignorant about Line clearance. I can only answer your question in regard as to how the utilities where I have worked treat those tree`s

A "front yard tree" is a setting that is maintained & those tree(s) are to be trimmed differently.....only need to trim it for 3 years clearance! many "front yard trees" (scenario) carry into the back yard for Rear easements, basically any tree that has lawn mainteneance surrounding it receives a 3 year clearance trimming!

In my area these are still the Home owners tree(s) many a battle has broken out about this & even made the evening news, the tree companies still have to get (signed) permission to trim/remove these type of trees, it doesnt mean they will look good...the "C' cut the "L" cut the field goal post & other trims as they are referred to still happen!!!

At the Utlities I have worked for spiking any tree in a maintained setting is forbidden & will get you wrote up, suspended and if continued .....fired! Funny thing is & I know where you`re coming from.....I have seen the Inspector & GF say "hook it and hurry up". but you do it on your own its a punishable thing....not so when they tell you too which is usually for Safety or Production what you have asked has been a gray area for along time.

Ive seen guys get in trouble cuz the GF let them spike trees without getting the inspectors approval, just depends on if the Inspector was taken out to breakfast that day!!! How about the putting mud on the cuts? dont know if any other Line clearance guys have done this??? hope this long winded post helped!!!



LXT..................

 

[lxt]

Easy hoss, the stiletto crack was for lxt not for anyone else.

I am curious as to whether the US standards for pruning are the same as Australian in that AS4373 applies to amenity trees (ie trees in suburbia) and does not apply to trees in water catchment areas, national parks or designated rural areas.

Your wisecrack as you put it just showed how little you really know!! You tell us you dont & have not worked around powerlines & then foolishly comment on it....! Now you have worked around power lines...... So which is it??

As to your paragraph....Your Curious well maybe before you post here & elsewhere telling people how things should be done & insistant that it can be done a certain way! You will actually take the time to find out instead of posting meaningless prattle like you know something that you really dont!!

Ya know, I wish Ekka would chime in that way we would really know how things work down under pertaining to our industry.


LXT................

 

[Mike Cantolina]

but what I really asked was, according to your understanding of ISA rules, are these trees powerline trees because they are by a powerline, or residential trees because they are front of a residence?

In my opinion the ISA has never and will never answer this question due to liability reasons.

I just glanced through the utility specialist certification guide and didn't see a single mention of it.

 

[outofmytree]

Your wisecrack as you put it just showed how little you really know!! You tell us you dont & have not worked around powerlines & then foolishly comment on it....! Now you have worked around power lines...... So which is it??

As to your paragraph....Your Curious well maybe before you post here & elsewhere telling people how things should be done & insistant that it can be done a certain way! You will actually take the time to find out instead of posting meaningless prattle like you know something that you really dont!!

Ya know, I wish Ekka would chime in that way we would really know how things work down under pertaining to our industry.


LXT................

Once again an amazing display of tunnel vision and/or dyslexia. You and Ekka may as well be the same person.

Remember the OP?

So, what about trees in a residential area that are close to high voltage, some on home owners property?

Then I tried to explain it to you like this.

Over here you need a Western Power ticket to prune around power lines with differing grades for higher voltages. I have pruned domestic and street lines and if I cannot use a bucket then I climb spurless. I quote my price for the job done my way. If the HO wants it done differently they need a different company and I tell them so.

Note I am referring to the HO as the client. So clearly, to anyone with half a brain I am referring directly to the OP's question as to other peoples opinions on domestic work. Is that clear now?

And just to make it crystal clear I added this

As to the rest of your rant, I do not do, nor have I ever claimed to have done any form of commercial line clearance.

But it still isnt clear enough for you?

Ok

Really really slowly just for lxt.

I am certified to work around hv to 3300 volts.

I regularly work around voltage up to 3300 volts.

My clients are the owners of the properties whose trees are infringing the power lines. Over here the property owner is responsible to prune their own trees NOT the utility. http://www.westernpower.com.au/mainContent/safety/treesPowerlines/Trees.pdf

I do not work directly for the utility Western Power.

At no time have I ever put on spurs for pruning a hardwood tree. In fact the only tree we are still unable to devise a safe working spikeless pruning system for is the Syagrus romanzoffiana (Queen Palm or Cocos Palm). You could ask your bf Ekka about that tree if you wish but here is a piece of his wisdom regarding the use of spikes on queen palms.

8th November 2007, 05:12 PM #24

Ekka
Admin - Dip Arb & Hort



Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 9,091 Re: your take on pruning with spurs on
________________________________________
Ah ha!

About the only ones I spike are cocos palms, however I'm slowly knocking more back as frankly what you get paid for what you do doesn't match.

And I aint using ladders or buying $3k palm walkers and stuff throwing a line over and prussiking up etc for $50

And that's my reason for not voting coz I do spike palms and frankly, I dont give a hoot for stinking cocos palms, I figure people only clean them coz they cannot afford to remove them.

Slowly palms are more and more out of vogue, even the self cleaning ones grow tall and look ridiculous at the average house.

As to my question regarding ANSI vs AS standards that would be obvious even to you. I work in Australia and am conversant with OUR standards but want someone who works in the US to comment on THOSE standards. Try to remember that this is an INTERNATIONAL site so you should expect different viewpoints on various subjects.

 

[treeseer]

I am curious as to whether the US standards for pruning are the same as Australian in that AS4373 applies to amenity trees (ie trees in suburbia) and does not apply to trees in water catchment areas, national parks or designated rural areas.

Yes they are the same that way. Clearance was asking about the gray area in between, and the only answer is "it depends". The BMP's differentiate between rural and urban; makes sense. Simple rule may be; don't harm trees that owners care about.

Amazing how much arguing goes on here in lieu of paying $5 and reading the BMP's. lxt, your worship of der fuhrer from oz is really confusing; why treat one person's words as gold?

 

[outofmytree]

Yes they are the same that way. Clearance was asking about the gray area in between, and the only answer is "it depends". The BMP's differentiate between rural and urban; makes sense. Simple rule may be; don't harm trees that owners care about.

Amazing how much arguing goes on here in lieu of paying $5 and reading the BMP's. lxt, your worship of der fuhrer from oz is really confusing; why treat one person's words as gold?

Thanks Guy. That was the clarification I was looking for.

It appears then that we have similar cross issues in Australia over who exactly is setting the standard for pruning outside suburban settings. I am reminded of a discussion over seed collecting in rare or endangered Eucalypt species where spikes were the norm for entry. Wounding a tree to perhaps save a species is still a poor excuse for the method used but it was not in breach of a standard because the trees were not "amenity" trees.

It would be far more sensible IMO to remove the trees directly under power lines and replace them with species that simply will not grow tall enough to interfere. That of course would be common sense and Momma always said common sense aint that common.

 

[lxt]

Once again an amazing display of tunnel vision and/or dyslexia. You and Ekka may as well be the same person.

Remember the OP?




Then I tried to explain it to you like this.





And just to make it crystal clear I added this



But it still isnt clear enough for you?

Ok

Really really slowly just for lxt.

I am certified to work around hv to 3300 volts.

I regularly work around voltage up to 3300 volts.

My clients are the owners of the properties whose trees are infringing the power lines. Over here the property owner is responsible to prune their own trees NOT the utility. http://www.westernpower.com.au/mainContent/safety/treesPowerlines/Trees.pdf

I do not work directly for the utility Western Power.

At no time have I ever put on spurs for pruning a hardwood tree. In fact the only tree we are still unable to devise a safe working spikeless pruning system for is the Syagrus romanzoffiana (Queen Palm or Cocos Palm). You could ask your bf Ekka about that tree if you wish but here is a piece of his wisdom regarding the use of spikes on queen palms.



As to my question regarding ANSI vs AS standards that would be obvious even to you. I work in Australia and am conversant with OUR standards but want someone who works in the US to comment on THOSE standards. Try to remember that this is an INTERNATIONAL site so you should expect different viewpoints on various subjects.

You still dont & never will have a clue!! one minute you claim you dont work around powerlines......Now you do, now your certified for 3300 or whatever?

Then your curious about similar standards & how/if they compare.....Curious because you dont know!!! Plain & simple my lil pudding boy!!! YOU DONT HAVE A CLUE & couldnt carry Ekkas jock strap....

You are a "think I know" type, maybe before posting you should read the post you`re replying to more clearly!!!

Your knowledge is equal to the smear from soft stool at the bottom of the bowl!!! its gone after the 2nd flush! LMFAO


LXT.............

 

[outofmytree]

You still dont & never will have a clue!! one minute you claim you dont work around powerlines......Now you do, now your certified for 3300 or whatever?

Then your curious about similar standards & how/if they compare.....Curious because you dont know!!! Plain & simple my lil pudding boy!!! YOU DONT HAVE A CLUE & couldnt carry Ekkas jock strap....

You are a "think I know" type, maybe before posting you should read the post you`re replying to more clearly!!!

Your knowledge is equal to the smear from soft stool at the bottom of the bowl!!! its gone after the 2nd flush! LMFAO


LXT.............

I agree I couldnt carry Ekkas jockstrap. Not at least until you get your head out of it.

 

[tree MDS]

i agree i couldnt carry ekkas jockstrap. Not at least until you get your head out of it.

lol!

 

[lxt]

Yes they are the same that way. Clearance was asking about the gray area in between, and the only answer is "it depends". The BMP's differentiate between rural and urban; makes sense. Simple rule may be; don't harm trees that owners care about.

Amazing how much arguing goes on here in lieu of paying $5 and reading the BMP's. lxt, your worship of der fuhrer from oz is really confusing; why treat one person's words as gold?

Seer, what you and oomt forget or dont acknowledge is in Line clearance the rules differ depending on the setting, clearance is asking are they considered this or that? he asks such because certain standards are preached but not always adhered to!!

the bigger question & Clearance im not insinuating or speaking for you, please chime in if im wrong, the big ? is why does the ISA preach about Proper & have people in supervisory positions to insure such.....But they dont always do that!! especially in line clearance! your answer that it depends is not necessarily true!!

I have utility specifications on how the trees are to be maintained in all settings & these specs are overseen by ISA ca`s!!! now check this out!
these are just a few specs!

1- ROW trees are to be trimmed from ground up, the climber will remove all limbs, branches, etc.. to the highest safest point within the tree that could fail & interupt service!

2-Street trees & trees of a front yard setting will be trimmed to obtain the proper clearances & will be trimmed regarding growth rates of particular species. minimum 3 years clearance

3- trees directly under the utilities facilities will be trimmed directionally so if failure should happen service will continue un-interupted.

The Big one.....USE OF CLIMBING SPURS is not an acceptable practice, however!!! it is recognized that ascending certain ROW trees may require the use of climbing spurs, If the situation entails concern regarding safety the climber may use whatever apparatus deemed necessary at his disposal to gain access aloft, as long as the "apparatus" meets or exceeds the requirements for its intended use....etc..etc..

I have been instructed under the guidance of an ISA CA utility inspector to: crown reduce...more than eliminating 1/3 the crown of a tree, to side trim in a manner that the top of the tree was removed & sloped back away from the powerlines, etc..

The use of spurs, spikes or whatever one wants to call them have been used in front yard trees....its not permitted on every tree & Ill tell ya right now...if Im climbing in inclimate weather conditions & I have (pouring rain, snow, etc..) & im in close proximity to the primary!!! Im using hooks!!! one slip off the overhanging limb & im toast, at least I can dig in & get a grip with the hooks...not alway comfy up there but remember this is line work & pretty much all the branches to hold on to are sucker growth..not a fun feeling either way!!

So it really depends on the situation, the tree, the utility, the inspector, the foreman, etc.. this is outside the scope of the standards & the truth is!!! the utilities I have worked for put the need for electric above the way the tree(s) are trimmed/removed or how they look weather in the ROW or on the street!!

Seer....who am I supposedly worshipping? If you are referring to Ekka? I brought ekka up because oomt & him are both from Australia, Ekkas credentials in Australia far exceed what oomt has! therefore I believe we would gain better insight from a more knowledgeable source!

As far as Line clearance goes im not even sure what your credentials are pertaining to it?, you guys can refer to this standard or that standard...truth is with line work those standards are thrown out the window from time to time & done so by ISA CA`s....done so cuz the reality of the situation is not in the book!!


LXT................

 

[lxt]

This doesnt make any sense. Unless you are insulting my wife which would be a new low even for you. I suggest you edit this post. Now.

What doesnt make sense? whats in a jockstrap? you`re good at throwing stones but dont like it when they come back to hit you!
Honestly....im not insulting anyone!

LXT........ok I`ll fix it up for you....he he

 

[outofmytree]

What doesnt make sense? whats in a jockstrap? you`re good at throwing stones but dont like it when they come back to hit you!
Honestly....im not insulting anyone!

LXT........ok I`ll fix it up for you....he he

I have no issue with trash talk directed at me.

Removing that post was the right thing to do.