Ropes driving me knots!

[Mad Professor]

Learning curve on that. Plus equipment costs. I'm trying to get with rope, chains, comealong/ratcheting chainfall puller, I already have.

Trees I'm working with don't need to be taken down in sections. Although, I've used climbing spurs when I was younger. My monkey days are past me I think.

 

[lone wolf]

Learning curve on that. Plus equipment costs. I'm trying to get with rope, chains, comealong/ratcheting chainfall puller, I already have.

Trees I'm working with don't need to be taken down in sections. Although, I've used climbing spurs when I was younger. My monkey days are past me I think.

If you are up on a ladder be tied in with a rope a safety harness. Thank me latter.

 

[NeSurfcaster]

Ladders are dangerous, tie yourself in and tie the ladder to the tree. But throwline is your best bet, w/out much practice 40-50' is totally possible your first day. Couple wedges are nice too just in case your rigging slips, at least the wedges will catch your progress if the rigging slips. Butterfly is ok for midline attachment but it has given me a hard time untying after heavy loads. Recently I've been using a tenex prussic cord for midline attachment for medium size pulls(5,000lbs or less).
You could always do the hillbilly mid line attachment way, #1 make a bight in pulling line #2 tie a overhand knot but keep the knot loose, #3 shove about 20 little sticks inside the overhand knot,#4 pull overhand knot tight w/ sticks inside it, #5 Attach the bight to hitch ball or whatever ******/shackle... Pull tree over and then bust up/pull the sticks out inside the overhand knot so you can untie it. Works like a charm for some tree guys I've worked for in the past that don't know knots...

 

[Wow]

I

Get yourself a bag and a throw line, much easier with a little practice than hauling a ladder around, and you will be able to set your line much higher. I have the Wesspur kit, works great.

http://www.wesspur.com//throw-line/throw-line-kits.html

I use a piece of 3/4 PVC pipe about 4 inches long and cut bevels (think like the roof of a house) at the front end so it can slide over a branch. Then drill small holes near top points of the bevels. Next make a wire bail to attach 15 pound fishing line. Bends in the end of wire bail snaps into holes in PVC.
To add some weight I fill pipe with foam.

I'm very good with a Rod and Reel. Toss that over a limb then pull a 1/4 nylon line over limb. Attach that to my half inch climbing rope and pull it over limb.
Next tie the climbing rope to the 3/4 Bull Rope. If not done right this WILL CATCH on something SO I wrap the end of the Bull rope with Black Tape in an effort to make a point where the two ropes are joined. A big ole knot WILL JAM. I use a clove hitch about 2 feet down from the joint between two ropes then loop up to the joint and tie and wrap. In sailboats we call it a chain knot. Start off with a clove hitch then half a clove spaced apart. Kinda a loop long line another loop a clove at top. At the very top half a clove is smaller then tape holds it. If it catches back it down. Ive actually made a sort of funnel to get the big rope over a limb.

Then a Running Bolen but I add another pull rope (my climbing rope right on the bull rope so ny helper can use that to take up slack. When the tree starts to fall the Bull rope can slacken. The guide rope keeps tree on path. Last. Before I pull the Bull rope loop up I attatch the 1/4 nylon line so IF I decide to not cut I can pull the loop all way down and untie my 300 dollar rope and cut later. Thats only happened once and I was glad I didn't have to climb to recover my rope.

 

[Wow]

oh yes. Forgot. I have several Loops which can form a Prusik on the Bull Rope. Then attaching the 6,000 pound guide line on Bull Rope using the rope loop. I use loops and Prusik knots a lot.

 

[Philbert]

I use a piece of 3/4 PVC pipe about 4 inches long and cut bevels (think like the roof of a house) at the front end so it can slide over a branch. Then drill small holes near top points of the bevels. Next make a wire bail to attach 15 pound fishing line. Bends in the end of wire bail snaps into holes in PVC.
To add some weight I fill pipe with foam.

oh yes. Forgot. I have several Loops which can form a Prusik on the Bull Rope. Then attaching the 6,000 pound guide line on Bull Rope using the rope loop. I use loops and Prusik knots a lot.

Pics would be helpful to visualize understand.

Thanks.

Philbert

 

[Wow]

Ok, Finally got time for a photo.
The shape of wire bale allows it to slide over a limb. Then if the pipe flips over the cut angle helps that side pull over a limb.
Inside the PVC is a bit of foam glued in for weight. It must be light enough to not break the line upon toss and heavy enough to be tossed. I cast with a 6 foot Rod and Zebco 33 reel. 15 pounds of test line. Tuning this takes a few tosses. The wire bale needs to be strong but I like it to pull out if the plug catches so the pvc falls to the ground. Reattach and toss again. After all the bugs are worked out they work well. A couple extra are fast to make. Also: I've made a few solid wooden tossing plugs shaped the same way. Once the plug is over I pop the line to get it to the ground. It's a learn as you go system but, for me, it's much easier than tossing a bag.
Good luck.

 

[BC WetCoast]

Throwbags have loose lead shot in them so they don't bounce for when they hit a branch (and they always do). I don't think golf balls have enough weight to bring the line down if the tree has a lot of branches in it.

I've become a bigger fan of using a 3:1 or 5:1 (truckers hitch/poor man's come along) to pull a tree vs a mechanical device. It's just one less thing that can screw up at the wrong time.

To attach your pull line to a clevis a loop formed by Figure 8 on a bight works well for me. If I think it's going to load up, I put a stick in the knot, to get slack when it's unloaded.

When using a Tirfor, I've attached it to the pull line using a prussik, which allows for more adjustment.
If you have to pull against a huge lean, just put 2 pull ropes in it.

 

[Wow]

Even three ropes at times. The main thing is to move plan your actions and proceed cautiously. Many times I've cut and lowered heavy branches (in managable pieces) from the leaning side to help unload the direction of fall. I was 68 when a large limb almost took me to the ground. I have a white scar in the shape of a Cross on the back of my left hand from a deep scratch after It was deflected. At 73, as badly as I yearn to climb I don't anymore. I'm pretty strong and sometimes tell myself I could but there comes a time when a man has to realize he's become limited. My 23 year old Grandson is the man in the family now. He's respectful and will take advice but if I get to where I can't work at all I may as well be dead. Im still able to operate my almost 20 pound saw (our scales) pretty good and enjoy working but tree work has a way of becoming a part of a mans identity and I can't yet stop completely. Be Blessed.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

For me:
For throw weight, you want more bean bag of hit, deform, slide into place, than hard device bound away. We actually started with rubber 'ball' on ring, bean bag ball as a refinement.
Throw line itself should be slick enough to slide not hang.
Favour slipped anchor for tying to ball ring, then 2 Cloves for grabbing real rope to pull up.
If get throw line on wrong close by limb, sometimes can pull ball up to just under limb and snap down hard and get ball to jump over to facing limb, even if higher. Even 'walk the dog' up 'steps' to target on good day.
Good deal on ball and throw line can be one of cheapest, time saving tools in tree work.
.
Double Bowline increases security, much more than strength.
Same bend/deformation to Standing Part, gives same geometry, thus same inefficiency of support architecture..
Standing Part is linear input feed, into controlling arcs of knot.
>> Arcs can capitilize on both sine/cosine for their controlling frictions duties.
>> Linear rope parts use most intense, focused cosine for resisting load and less direct, diffused sine only for friction and grip to host.
>> SAME bend in Standing Part, same intense cosine = SAME structural efficiency maintained/'strength'.
Small diameter host mount , 2 turns/3 x180 arcs on host mount can spread out rope wear and be some stronger that way.
>> Cats Paw is very clean linear Standing Part, especially both legs pulled as in sling usage.
>> so 'stronger' , and gives more turns to share load on small host mounts.
>> 1 leg pull give extra turn perhaps cleaner and stoppering.
In pro ropes, pro knots, wide SWL ratios, 'strength' is less important than rest of proper application.
MANY stiff or stretchy ropes don't work well w/Bowline. It is great generally in ropes that lend to it/ seat to own diameter well, and not too stretchy.
.
To put in tree top DBY Double Bowline w/Yosemite tie off running, high to strong rigid point of even pull to facing, preferably over tree's CoG/Center of Gravity, prefer pulling directly to fall more than against any sideLean.
>> if can, prefer lace over crotch, trace down back and tie off with Clove above face, knot on back very easy to find after fall.
Unwrap turns and pull out w/truck before cutting/boning landed fish.
>> Clove is continuous turns and wants to walk tighter or out, always give backup/sieze.
(Counter torque of Backhand Turn / off host crossing in Cow doesn't walk tighter or off as much, but still positively size w/backup against initial creep as standard mechanical practice)


For sideLean prefer Tapered Hinge to give ballast against sideLean as also allow fold to target.
Falling as sideLean when can, to practice, and less direct ground hit.
Fat side of Tapered to 'off side'(Dent) against sideLean, but preserve some hinge presence closest to lean as anti-swivel from over correction against sideLean.
>> even if center punch leaving only extremes of hinge length.
Then pull towards target to force stronger hinge response/ generally not against sideLean.
.
Like wedge help, but mostly safety anti-sitback, still serve to face.
Rope pull and especially wedge push relieve as tree comes forward.
But , strength forced into hinge maintains longer until tearoff type model.
So i look at added push/pull TO FACE as exercising birthed hinge stronger/thicker, then extra load relieved.
>> added push/pull direction part against lean generally gives temp side load relief , not imbued into hinge by contrast.
.
Trucker's Hitch /zRig converts 1 pull to 3 to allow funnelling more distance into shorter pull/more power in exchange
>> BUT rope frictions of arcs can drop efficiency to bring from 3x power to 1.65x some tests show.

 

[pdqdl]

Need some advice on knots to use on ropes used to help guide/direct whole trees down.

Trees are not bad leaners or huge, just are close to some stuff I don't want to crush. I've been felling trees a long time and am pretty good with direction and use of wedges, just only used ropes a few times and I'm not a climber.

Some of the trees have some trunk rot so hinges might not be sound or fail. I'll wrap a chain around the trunk above the cut, in case the trunk starts to split to keep things together.

Plan is to use 5/8 rope high as possible on trees in question, keep some light tension on during back cut, then pull as the backcut is near completed. Will be using a comealong , or ratcheting chainfall to pull.

1) To connect to tree. Running bowline.

2) If I have to join two ropes for tall trees. Zepplin or Flemmish bends.

3) To connect to a large clevis or such on the pulling end. Double Bowline, Anchor bend, or Halyard hitch (hard to untie).

Are these good choices?

net knots

Of course this is a rather old thread, but I'll jump in anyway. Some things ought to be said.

I have a much better choice for setting your high rope. Don't use a running bowline.
While that will hold quite well, it has several disadvantages.

1. In order to use a running bowline properly, you will need to isolate a branch aloft so that the bowline will not just be choking multiple branches together. This can be a huge problem, often consuming time, and there aren't too many good ways to recover the rope.
2. If for some reason, you need to change your plan, a running bowline is kinda irreversable unless you leave a tail on the knot long enough to pull it back down.
3. if you are going to use that much rope anyway, you should just save time and trouble. Throw the rope over your best branch, and then secure it to the trunk (well above your planned felling cut) with a timber hitch. When applying the pull on the tree, if your branch should happen to break, the rope will just go down the tree to the next branch down, which might enable you to save an otherwise bad position.
4. A rope is a bit stronger when running over a branch rather than being choked down upon it.
5. DRAWBACK: depending upon the angle of your pull, you might be significantly increasing the force upon the crown (or branch) of the tree using this method. In a frictionless world, the rope will be applying more force to the tree, since the top will have become a "pulley", with force magnification being put on it by the rope. The further away from having a vertical pull line you are, the less power increase you will be putting on the tree. Obviously, quite a bit of friction is involved with ropes running over fixed branches, so the power magnification isn't something I usually worry about too much while using this technique.

While your other knots are all good choices, it's easy to overdo the knot selection by favoring a complex knot over one that is actually stronger and equally reliable.

For joining two ropes, the sheet bend is really reliable, and probably the strongest available. Lots of folks fear using it, on account of how simple it is to tie. It's architecture is identical to the bowline, however.

I've never read that a double bowline is any more secure or stronger than the single,