Saddle disqualification at ITCC

[TreeJunkie]

I'm not sure how many of us in here are climbing on the Buttterfly saddle by Komet. But for those of us who do i know that many of us wind up alterring the bridge ourselves. I did this w/ mine. I cut the aluminum rings out and replaced them w/ 5/16 S.S. no snag bow shackles from Bosun Supply. I mounted them to the same position as the stock rings. I used hi-strength locktite and allen wrenches to tighten down the bolt. Between these to i have a Spectra sling rated at 6,500 lbs. So everything rates as high or higher than should ever be needed by any regulatory agency. If anyone has seen Tom's B'fly it's an identical setup. Well this didn't seem to matter at the gear inspection for the I.T.C.C. in Mesa, AR. I was told that because the modifications were not done from the saddle maker that this would not pass.
I know there has been much controversy about this issue in the past at the ITCC. However in the past i think these kind of mods had been allowed. I was told that they told everyone last year that these kinds of things would not be allowed in the future. My thing is when i asked to see a written rule regarding this matter, no one had anything to show me. I had spec sheets for the bow shackles from Bosun Supply and the sling was clearly marked w/ it's breaking strength. I've been climbing on this bridge set up for about 4 months. I'm telling you there is no way this thing will fail.
I know it's been allowed in the past for a piece of rope to be tied to the stock aluminum rings, attached w/ fishermans knot. As i see this this set up would have great chance of failure; due in two parts: knot failure & strength loss in the rope b/c of the knot.
In a previous post on the buzz i read that in the rule book for the ITCC there is a rule that no saddle mods. may be made that in any way reduce the strength of the saddle. I don't see how my mods. have. If anything they have probobally strengthened it significantly.
By the way it was still allowed for the rope w/ fishermans knots method of replacement. As a matter of fact the winner of the Master's Challenge Dan Stevens had the very same mod.
Anyone have any suggestions to correct this injustice?

 

[NeTree]

Yea...

Leave the all-knowing, glory-queens be.

Surely you have better things to do?

When you're dealing with idiots, sometimes you have to just walk away. I do it alot- especially here.

JMHO

 

[xander9727]

You could always fill out a formal complaint but, I doubt anything will be done.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by netree
When you're dealing with idiots, sometimes you have to just walk away. I do it alot- especially here.

This skwerl strategy won't get your mod approved for next time.

[/B] TJ--"i read that in the rule book for the ITCC there is a rule that no saddle mods. may be made that in any way reduce the strength of the saddle."

File a complaint with this rule attached, and get cleared to use the mod next year. Remember the judges are volunteers, not a highly paid highly trained cadre of professionals. If you can cite the ITCC rule I see no way you can't win.

The only thing I've ever done to a saddle is put it on; if you know enough and care enough to better it, that should be recognized. A well-filed complaint educates the judges and lets them know you take your work seriously.

Calling someone a name and walking away leaves things worse, and leaves you with the same problem next year. Not a productive response, is it netree?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

A bridge replacement using a rope and fisherman knots would not decrease the strength of the rope. What reduces the strength of the rope is sharp bends. If you follow the bends in a fisherman's knot, you will see that the bend around the ring is first, then the rope goes back to the loaded side of the rope and the knot starts.
This means that the knot itself takes less than half the load.

In the previous discusions, it was said that bridge replacement was not changing the design of the saddle and should not be a problem, but you went one step farther and changed the rings out for shackles which are thinner and cause sharper bend radius/ratios. You also are using a shackle that is not designed to be loaded from three different directions, unless you are using a delta link, then you still have the issue of bend radius.

Also there is the whole screw thing. Loctite or not, screws and bolts unscrew. We just had a thread about screws falling out of gaffs.

These are just a few concerns without even seeing your saddle. The judge is putting himself and the orginization at risk of liability letting you climb on modified gear. Without being expert at understanding all the engineering involved, how could he approve the modification?

 

[Tom Dunlap]

In my opinion and after discussing the use of bow shackles in this fashion, its not a misuse of gear.

The bridge is made from a loop of webbing, not rope.

If documentation is provided about gear mods, it seems like they should be allowed. If the mods change the function, that's different.

The screw coming out of the spike is a whole different issue. That doesn't belong in this discussion. Using Locktite on new, clean, stainless steel will keep the screws in. If there were any question, give them a tweak with the allen wrench. I keep my allen wrench in the pouch on my saddle at all times.

There will continue to be issues like this until there is a judges school. That won't happen until a deep-pocket sponsor comes on board.

It does seem inconsistent that one competitor could use a rope bridge even though they used the al rings.

Komet wrote that the way that they wanted to see the bridge replaced was with a rope that passes through the rings with proper stopper knots on the ends. In other words, the rope isn't tied to the rings at all, it slips through. This whole issue is documented thoroughly on Treeb*zz.

Diplomacy is needed not attitude.

Tom

 

[NeTree]

Originally posted by Guy Meilleur

Calling someone a name and walking away leaves things worse, and leaves you with the same problem next year.

Who said anything about calling him names?

I said "When you're dealing with idiots, sometimes you have to just walk away."

Eyeballs are a wonderful thing

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I would try to find someone on the rules commitee and request that the particular rule be clarified.

Does the inspecting judge need a definate reason to DQ the gear?

Will breaking strength documentation be allowed to pass gear?

Must all mods be approved by the manufacturer?

Must all material used be approved by the manufacturer for rhe specific use of human suspention?

The reason for many of the rullings is that there have been a number of deaths in the competition. I think all were due to unbelayed footlock. Still the organization wants to have all the CYA they can, this is why they leave a fair amount of discression to the vollenteer judges.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

There have been a number of deaths in the competition????

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

A number of years ago, it nearly shut them down.

Unsecured footlock competition If i have the info correct

 

[Tom Dunlap]

I don't believe there was ever a death but there have been severe injuries.

From what I remember these incidents were not gear related.

Tom

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by netree
Who said anything about calling him names?
I said "When you're dealing with idiots, sometimes you have to just walk away."
So you called THEM (who you never met) names; I didn't say "him".

Eyeballs are a wonderful thing

So are humility and diplomacy in dealing with a situation. Avoiding it may be viable coping on an anger-management level, but letting it fester only makes it worse.

"The reason for many of the rullings is that there have been a number of deaths in the competition. I think all were due to unbelayed footlock."

Eeyikes! Now I know why I never learned footlocking. When ITCC creates a TLH and bodythrust category, I'll be there!

 

[NeTree]

Originally posted by Guy Meilleur
So are humility and diplomacy in dealing with a situation.

... the situation was obviously not going to resolved right then and there...

 

[Tom Dunlap]

TreeCo,

The issues with the B'fly saddle in competition have been going on for years. The issue was settled at the ITCC level last year. There will still be issues about rules as long as there is competition.

Tom

 

[wiley_p]

Tom I have a question, its still related to the Butterfly, and indirectly to the ITCC comp rules, I ordered my butterfly sight unseen(almost) the one assumption I made is that being a Frenxch company I thought for sure that all stress points would be bartacked, I've alwaYS found this amusing all the talk about safety regarding saddles etc and in my mind the often drunken looking stitch patterns on saddles Buckingham in paticular, leaves a little to be desired. John Yates did some tests on our different types of work mposition saddles and you would be amazed at the various methods of failure. They will not come close to any sort of true fall. Yet the ITCC is concerened about a slight mod to a saddle. Amazing!

 

[arbor01]

hello ,
I have heard that one of the Masters challenge paticipants was not allowed to complete his climb due to the lack of daylight. I was wondering how many contestants you had and what time in the morning did you begin. Also did you not compete at all because of the saddle issue. If what you say is true about the other contestants b-fly being modified but being allowed I would certainly file a written protest with your TCC chairperson. Sounds as though the whole shootin match needs to be looked at and some questions answered.

 

[TreeJunkie]

WHO KNOWS

In regard to the amount of total finalist there were originally going to be 5, then that was cut to 4, by the time it got to be the forth guys turn they almost didn't let him climb at all, and then gave him last when they called him out of the tree prematurally, he was having a decent climb even in the dark. But timing wise originally all climbers were sopposed to arive by 7:30, and things should have started by 8, I arrived at 6:40, at that time hardly anyone had arrived and the buckets didn't show up till about 7:15 to begin the completion of setting up the stations. Anyhow the whole thing fell a little behind I would guess it was closer to nine before any competing actually got going.
In regard to who i should file a complaint to, i have no idea b/c everyone on the Arizona tree council was there the night of inspections, and the one person i have been suggested to contact was Jim Skiera, well he was there as well, I wonder if it is a lost cause ?

 

[arbor01]

So did you compete and how many competetors started out in the morning. If this was a ISA TCC event it should have had a chairperson. This person would be the one to make your initial protest to. I would copy your protest to Jim skiera at the ISA office as well as Scott Prophett the head judge of the International Tree Climbing Championships. They can get your feelings to the Rules committee. Its obviously too late to change what happened at your event but you have the oppourtunity to change things for the future of your event. Feel free to e-mail me off site if you need some more help.

 

[TreeJunkie]

yeah, i sure did compete. I ended up borrowing a saddle from Bishop co. A Glide was as close as they had to what i was used to so it had to do, although it turned out to be nothing like a b/fly at all. Thanks for everyone's help w/ this issue, i'm going to get in contact w/ the right people and hopefully make some kind of difference in the future.

 

[PRUNER 1]

I JUST RECENTLY MODIFIED MY BF AND FOUND IT TO BE LOADS EASIER TO TURN SIDE TO SIDE IN. I PUT SOME YELLOW AND BLACK PRUSSIK CORD ACROSS THE BRIDGE AND BUTCHERED ME BUCKINGHAM CAMBIUM SAVER. PUT THE BIG RING ON NEW BRIDGE AND SLIDES ALMOST FRICTIONLESS, PUKKA. ANY VIEWS ON THIS MOD?