Screw piles as anchors for guys/tails?

[KiwiBro]

Has anyone any information on screw/helical/conical piles/anchors being used to anchor cable operations when hold trees/stumps are thin on the ground?

These sorts of piles are not just good under compression loads but also tensile loads and are used to anchor masts and windmills so it got me to thinking if anyone is using them in cable operations. They screw out as easily as they screw in.

This is just a thought. I have never seen it done. Here's a link to the wiki on these things:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screwpiles

 

[northmanlogging]

its an interesting idea...

But the stresses put on a wind mill guy line are very different then the stresses put on say a haulback or a skyline, Yarder lines have dynamic stresses, in that they are never constant, where as normal guy lines, are built for x amount of stress, and its not all that much...

I the mast thing comes close, but the design of a boat is built around its need for strength and motion, the guys and sheets are anchored to specific points in the frame work to distribute the load properly, even then... a little wind is nothing compared to a big log.

Not to shoot ya down, it really is a pretty good idea, but you anchor a yarder cable you would need a screw about 5 feet long and 1" in diameter... While doable, not as easy as hooking a shackle around a stump...

As far as stumps on thin ground there are tricks like dead men, which is a log or few buried with the lines hooked to em, or a piece of equipment such as a cat, or an excavator, or tying a bunch of little stumps together to make a big stump.

 

[slowp]

We learned about those at Oregon State. They were called earth anchors there. Google earth anchors for skyline yarding and there are papers about using them. I've never seen them in actual use.

 

[KiwiBro]

Thanks. Found this


Http://www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/html/93241804/93241804.html

 

[spindrift7mm]

Stumps and trees = cheap and quick

 

[slowp]

Stumps and trees and spots to park a cat on=not always available and sale planners tend to forget to check for such things.

I seem to recall PLS drilling into rock to put in guyline anchors. The reason it comes to mind is that one of their guys broke a hip in the process.

We also changed the tune, Earth Angel into Earth Anchor during the time at OSU. Now I've cursed everybody with an earworm.

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

Why only west coast that uses yarders? They don't seem quicker than a skidder.on Ax man.

Now I realize not a good show for actual info on ligging, but it's all I've seen. Before it came out I had never even heard of a yarder!

 

[spindrift7mm]

Skidder and cats can only run so steep.

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

Skidder and cats can only run so steep.

Dunno, I can get pretty much anywhere the feller buncher goes. A good feller buncher operator will put the logs in the best spot to grab too.

 

[spindrift7mm]

In the stuff that's to steep for feller bunchers we use a bunch of fellers !

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

I'd be interested to see a job that is steeper than something a feller buncher can do. The one we run (Timberjack) is stable on slopes I can barely stand on.

I guess if it was real rough/rocky?

I'm not arguing either, just interested in the why.

 

[Gologit]

I'd be interested to see a job that is steeper than something a feller buncher can do. The one we run (Timberjack) is stable on slopes I can barely stand on.

I guess if it was real rough/rocky?

I'm not arguing either, just interested in the why.

Just take our word for it. There is ground that's too steep for a feller buncher.
You need to go out to SE Alaska and see what real logging is like. Washington, Oregon, or California would show you a thing or two also.
In other words, you need to get away from that pecker-pole show you're on where you think you're logging but you're really not.

 

[chucker]

Just take our word for it. There is ground that's too steep for a feller buncher.
You need to go out to SE Alaska and see what real logging is like. Washington, Oregon, or California would show you a thing or two also.
In other words, you need to get away from that pecker-pole show you're on where you think you're logging but you're really not.

like 90deg. pistol butt stumps hey on a 70% incline, just short of cliff logging with a long line for support!

 

[slowp]

We have best management practices. 40% slope with short pitches of steeper can be skidder logged. Shovel logging can go on steeper ground, depending on the operator's skill but you also need to remember that those machines and feller bunchers cannot go to their maximum reach on steep ground. Yarder logging is also easier on soils when done correctly. Now I'll see if I can find my steep ground picture where they eventually had to drill into rock for guyline anchors.

In the unit pictured, note the slope of the unit below the yarder. The unit went down and up the other side of the canyon. Nothing too unusual for that time. The slope above the yarder was in the process of being yarded downhill to the landing. The yarder was a brand new Thunderbird and had been pulled in the Morton Logger's Jubilee parade before moving into the woods.

I have seen a unit steeper than this one and the local fallers would not cut on it. Fallers were imported from the Olympic Peninsula--Forks area and roped in. Of course, the logs rolled to the bottom. I expected a reforestation nightmare because it was almost vertical ground, but it was planted and is fully stocked.

 

[slowp]

This was a very typical unit for this area--a flat slope on the upper part then a bluff and steep ground down to a creek.
The flat area was usually done with a high lead set up. A spur road would be built out to the edge of the bluff the yarder set up there. I think they used a rider block on the steep part. Mechanized carriages were just coming into use in our part of the country about then.

Steep ground means good lift, if the line can run across a draw or canyon.

 

[KiwiBro]

As far as stumps on thin ground there are tricks like dead men, which is a log or few buried with the lines hooked to em, or a piece of equipment such as a cat, or an excavator, or tying a bunch of little stumps together to make a big stump.

I at first thought that if it actually works it still wouldn't be used much but be one of those ideas that when actually needed is very welcome indeed.

But I'm really keen to see it actually being used and whether anyone has come up with a worthwhile procedure that is actually dead easy, relatively quick to use, and easy enough to test its reliability when 'setting' the anchors before anchoring a tower/tail, etc. I see the potential benefits as quick and being able to set up the landings in the optimal place, well ahead of the tower actually getting there (and such anchors could be left there if not taking to the next landing) for the next rotation to plug into when they are cutting pecker poles and all the good stumps of harvests past have rotted out.

But I guess it's one of those things where there is a very good reason I've never seen anyone here using it.

 

[BeatCJ]

The only place I have seen them used is for a permanent guyline anchor for overhead utilities, i.e. power, phone. I know I have seen them abandoned when poles are moved, I suspect if they have time to be in the ground they will "glue" themselves in with reactions in the soils. I doubt you could get the equipment into place cost effectively unless you had a pretty good site lined out. The ones I have seen placed have all used a pretty good sized auger to place them, the type that are built onto a 50 to 70 thousand gvw truck chassis. Pretty sure I've seen them mounted on crawlers, too, but I can't think where. It's specialized equipment, I would bet it would be cost prohibitive for a smaller outfit to have it sitting around for "just in case".

I have no doubt they would work in the right soils, if sized and installed correctly.

 

[treeslayer2003]

Just take our word for it. There is ground that's too steep for a feller buncher.
You need to go out to SE Alaska and see what real logging is like. Washington, Oregon, or California would show you a thing or two also.
In other words, you need to get away from that pecker-pole show you're on where you think you're logging but you're really not.

hahahahaha..........not steep here, but a few stands left bunchers can't handle. i hate to cut pecker poles......

 

[northmanlogging]

I'd be interested to see a job that is steeper than something a feller buncher can do. The one we run (Timberjack) is stable on slopes I can barely stand on.

I guess if it was real rough/rocky?

I'm not arguing either, just interested in the why.

Well... Feller bunchers aren't used a whole lot here, granted they are used, just not as extensively as in other places. Reason being that where the ground isn't too steep, its too soft. Or in a lot of cases like slowP said the forester or whomever doesn't want equipment on the ground, fact is skidders tear **** up... bad... even with a good driver, and as much as people like to claim tracks are better, they still tear **** up too.

And yes some skidders are stable on slopes... but not all, and I'd like ta see any skidder side hill a load on yarder ground... well any except for mine...

Also can you drag 3-6 trees 2000 feet in around 6 minutes? these trees probably average 1k bf each. Taint no skidder in the world that fast. If'n ya think about some of these yarder crews are getting like 20 loads a day... some wheres around 90,000 bf every day...

Anyway, Ya have to see yarder ground to truly appreciate just how steep it is. A guy can usually find a place to stand ok, but going up hill means using all fours, and going down hill sometimes means sliding on your ass or hanging on to weeds and vegetation to belay down. When you loose a log on yarder ground... they tend to keep going until they find water...

 

[2dogs]

Dunno, I can get pretty much anywhere the feller buncher goes. A good feller buncher operator will put the logs in the best spot to grab too.

You are out of your league here. Go back to "firewood" before somebody really embarrasses you.