Shantung Maple dying, need help. Possible overwatering?

[glocklt4]

Hello, I could really use some help as I feel like I'm about to lose my second 50gal Shantung Maple in 2 years in a row. Early last Summer we planted one and had a really hot Aug/Sept in Dallas, and around Sept-Oct leaves were already turning like it was fall and dropping (that usually happens Nov here), and then it ended up having dead leaves on it in fall which I knew was not a good sign. I kept fingers crossed all winter that it would still be alive in Spring but it was a goner. So we replaced it again with another 50ish gal in April but now having similar problems!

It has looked great until the past two weeks or so, but starting then it has been dropping some normal green leaves (without much brown on tips), and now the past 2 days half the leaves on the tree are curled, dry, and some brown, and almost half the tree's leaves are on the ground. It is looking bare very quickly. It has been over 100F here a lot lately, and will continue to be for the next few weeks probably, so I have been watering it extra like everything else, and put an additional layer of mulch on about a week ago as well to help conserve moisture thinking that it was drying out from the heat, but now I'm wondering if somehow it's overwatered. We have clay here in Dallas, and when I removed the previous diseased (fire blight) ~30-40' sweetgum tree, we dug a hole about twice as big as the 55gal root ball (about all I could do). Packed in new proper soil around it and compacted well, 2 bags of mulch on top back in April. Initially watered every 2 days when it was first planted, then every 3ish starting a month later, and then every 4-5 the past month. I would fill a 20 gal watering bag for slow watering, but also water for a few minutes as well. All worked just fine until now, at 3.5mo out. I now also wonder if adding more mulch a couple weeks ago has caused this as well by depriving oxygen. I have now moved the mulch out away from the trunk in 1' radius and exposed some of the soil (compared to the picture below). Also worth noting that it seems these curled leaves are almost all on the same branches (not scattered throughout the tree). There are other branches which don't have many/any curled leaves, so it seems a whole branch at a time is being affected.

Any advice? Can I save this tree?

 

[Bullseye T&L]

I have a few questions:
1) What problems/symptoms did the sweetgum tree have?
2) When you planted the maples, did you pull the soil away from trunk to locate the root flare, then ensure that the flare was slightly above soil grade?
3) If NO to #2, can you go find the root flare and see how far below soil grade it is? Don't count the mulch height, just soil.
4) Did you add any fertilizer, or did your soil contain fertilizer?
5) Was this in a container when you got it?
6) Was the container soil more wet, more dry, or in between?
7) Have any herbicides or fertilizers been applied to lawn recently?

This is just a start, there may be more.

 

[glocklt4]

I have a few questions:
1) What problems/symptoms did the sweetgum tree have?
2) When you planted the maples, did you pull the soil away from trunk to locate the root flare, then ensure that the flare was slightly above soil grade?
3) If NO to #2, can you go find the root flare and see how far below soil grade it is? Don't count the mulch height, just soil.
4) Did you add any fertilizer, or did your soil contain fertilizer?
5) Was this in a container when you got it?
6) Was the container soil more wet, more dry, or in between?
7) Have any herbicides or fertilizers been applied to lawn recently?

This is just a start, there may be more.

Thanks for your response.

1) Sweetgum had fire blight we think. Sap was leaking from spots in almost all branches and the trunk with bees drinking it. Branches dying off randomly over a few years with dead leaves attached still and rest of was tree fine. I tried carefully removing affected branches but it had clearly spread all over already within the tree. Hated to lose it because loved the shape and foliage in fall (not the spikey balls though!). I cut it down and had the entire trunk base ground down a couple feet and removed all big roots. We have another sweetgum in the back which I was able to trim out affected branches and save before it got into the trunk. So far still doing well.
2) While I did not pull the soil away to check it, I'm fairly certain that it was. There were small roots and soil right near soil level of the burlap root ball. The bottom of the hole was difficult to dig deep, so if anything I would say the tree was too high rather than too deep. I will confirm in the morning though.
3) Will check. There was reddish sandy/clay soil around it tonight when i cleared mulch, but didn't recall seeing a prominent root flare.
4) Added 14-14-14 fertilizer when planting the tree as recommended by nursery to encourage root growth, and sprinkled a little more on it a couple weeks ago as well (not sure if that was a good idea now after reading).
5) This second one was burlap wrapped, not a container. The previous tree that died was grown in a container, but the buddy who works at a nursery who got me both trees said this one should be better since grown in the ground.
6) It was fairly dry from what I recall, but not really sure since been a few months.
7) No herbicides or fertilizer to the lawn recently. As you can see from the pictures, our zoysia is doing great so don't think any pests/chemical issues causing this. We have sprinklers, and have been watering 3x/week for 27mins each time in this zone for a few months. I'm not entirely sure how much water the tree gets from this, but I don't see water standing around it in the mornings. I have disabled the sprinklers for a few days to let the soil around the tree dry out so I can dig down around the tree and check how wet it is without sprinklers/watering throwing off the check.

Certainly happy to answer more questions and provide more pictures. The rate at which the tree is declining is the main reason for reaching out. I am definitely not an expert with trees, and open to any suggestions. Already spent around $400-500 each time for these two trees and soil. Seems like it shouldn't be this difficult, ugh. Thanks!

 

[Bullseye T&L]

1) Sweetgum had fire blight we think. Sap was leaking from spots in almost all branches and the trunk with bees drinking it.

The sweetgum problem sounds more like a canker disease, like Botryosphaeria canker, than fireblight. Check your maple tree for cankers (necrotic spots) on limbs and twigs. Look closely. Sometimes you can confuse new cankered tissue for just a typical bark coloration. Also google it and you'll find some other things to look for.

Not sure about your tools, but if you used ANY of them on the sweetgum and the two maples and did not sanitize them thoroughly, you may have passed a pathogen along. Diseases can also be vectored by insects, and since you still have diseased sweetgum in back ...

Also, I know what your nursery said, but I am not a fan of fertilizing new plantings without a soil test. I've seen too many instances of fertilizer burn, especially during hot months. On top of that, with all the clay surrounding root ball, any fertilzer that doesn't get taken up will leach and collect in bottom of hole causing an area of high concentration.

On the fertilizer, was this SLOW or FAST release fertilizer. If it was fast release, then that would be highly undesirable. If it's slow release, then thats better. But, if you look at the bag, you MAY find that some slow release fertilizers may have some % content of fast release granules. You'll just have to check bag.

So, you said you added fertilizer 2 times so far. It would help to know exactly how much each time, and over what diameter it was spread.

Otherwise, it sounds like you jumped through all the hoops. With the heat, I would normally suspect scorch, but some of those leaves aren't scorched. The next possibility would just be transplant shock, which just means it's adjusting to it's new home, just not fast enough. But, in your pics, the one green leaf does look mildly chlorotic. A fungal disease could cause that.

Look into these things first and let us know what you find.

 

[glocklt4]

The sweetgum problem sounds more like a canker disease, like Botryosphaeria canker, than fireblight. Check your maple tree for cankers (necrotic spots) on limbs and twigs. Look closely. Sometimes you can confuse new cankered tissue for just a typical bark coloration. Also google it and you'll find some other things to look for.

Not sure about your tools, but if you used ANY of them on the sweetgum and the two maples and did not sanitize them thoroughly, you may have passed a pathogen along. Diseases can also be vectored by insects, and since you still have diseased sweetgum in back ...

Also, I know what your nursery said, but I am not a fan of fertilizing new plantings without a soil test. I've seen too many instances of fertilizer burn, especially during hot months. On top of that, with all the clay surrounding root ball, any fertilzer that doesn't get taken up will leach and collect in bottom of hole causing an area of high concentration.

On the fertilizer, was this SLOW or FAST release fertilizer. If it was fast release, then that would be highly undesirable. If it's slow release, then thats better. But, if you look at the bag, you MAY find that some slow release fertilizers may have some % content of fast release granules. You'll just have to check bag.

So, you said you added fertilizer 2 times so far. It would help to know exactly how much each time, and over what diameter it was spread.

Otherwise, it sounds like you jumped through all the hoops. With the heat, I would normally suspect scorch, but some of those leaves aren't scorched. The next possibility would just be transplant shock, which just means it's adjusting to it's new home, just not fast enough. But, in your pics, the one green leaf does look mildly chlorotic. A fungal disease could cause that.

Look into these things first and let us know what you find.

Added a bunch more pictures to try to help explain all of this.

I found the crown/notch of the trunk after digging 1-2" of sandy/clay soil away from the trunk. No horizontal root flare as I dug down a bit further and started to get into fine roots I didn't want to destroy. Sounds like initially I should have dug this away a bit when planting. The good news is this crown is above ground level, so I think the tree is not too deep, however I am starting to think I have still suffocated it with too much mulch on top and overwatering. I stuck a piece of rebar down in multiple holes around the trunk and there was not standing water, but the sandy clay soil was wet and stuck a bit to the rebar, not totally unexpected after I watered it well yesterday before realizing it was probably overwatered, not under. In pics below, I think I need to remove most of the built up mulch that I pulled away from the trunk.

Looking at canker disease, I don't think that was it on the sweetgum. The pictures I see online are big bunches of thick sticky amber sap with obvious cankers (kind of like i've seen on fruit trees), while our sweetgum was more of a liquidy green/yellow leak in a few spots, but the biggest sign was the bunches of dead totally leaves stuck on limbs like just fire blight pics I've seen, and limbs that were kind of breaking open. Several pics below to show.

When I was trying to save both of the sweetgum trees, I used bleach water very well every time to sanitize tools between the 2 trees, and also waited a few days too. I haven't used any trimming tools on the new trees. Have just left them alone. It was probably 4-5mo last year between removal of old tree and putting in new one. And this year the previous new tree I'm sure was totally dead around Oct last year. Removed and replaced it in same day in mid-April.

Added a couple pictures of the fertilizer. It says "Smart Release" and to use one scoop per 4sqft, and "No Burn Pledge (when used as directed)". The area applied is probably around 8-9sqft, and I believe I used either 1.5-2 scoops spreading it over the top and working in with mulch. When planning the tree I put 2 scoops worked in with the soil as we were packing it in around the tree.

 

[glocklt4]

More pics. New Shangtung.jpg is right after planting. Previous Shantung.jpg is from Oct last year when previous was obviously dead.

 

[Bullseye T&L]

Okay, I'm going to do some math here, so bear with me. And just forget what the fertilizer bag recommends for now. This is slow release fertilizer, but I think from the ingredient list we might deduce that it's 2-2-2 fast release.

So you added 2 scoops to soil, and did that twice since April planting. The bag says 1 scoop=3 Tbsp, which equals 1.5 fluid ounces. So 2 scoops=3 fluid ounces of fert. For Triple 14, 1 fluid ounce is roughly equal to 1 ounce weight. So you added roughly 3 ounces (weight) of fert each time. That's equal to .1875 lb fert each application. For triple 14, we multiply by 14%, to get 0.02625 lb of nitrogen added each time. Now divide this by 8 sf and you get 0.00328 lb nitrogen per sf. Now multiply by 1,000 sf and you find you added nitrogen at 3.28 lb/1,000 sf at each application.

My typical reference for established trees is 1-3 lbs of actual nitrogen for every 1,000 sf under canopy, each year. You just added roughly 6 lb/1,000 sf in 4 months to a new planting, during heat stress conditions, and then backed off on the watering. I think it might not be coincidence that two weeks ago it started to decline, and two weeks ago you added another dose of fertilizer.

So, I'm going with fertilizer burn.

 

[Bullseye T&L]

Oh, and I just wanted to add that you had mentioned the mulch suffocating the roots. Mulch is very porous, so I would not be worried about it suffocating the roots. In fact, we actually recommend mulching up to 4" deep around trees. If it were clay piled up around tree, then yeah, you could cause an issue.

 

[glocklt4]

Okay, I'm going to do some math here, so bear with me. And just forget what the fertilizer bag recommends for now.

So you added 2 scoops to soil, and did that twice since April planting. The bag says 1 scoop=3 Tbsp, which equals 1.5 fluid ounces. So 2 scoops=3 fluid ounces of fert. For Triple 14, 1 fluid ounce is roughly equal to 1 ounce weight. So you added roughly 3 ounces (weight) of fert each time. That's equal to .1875 lb fert each application. For triple 14, we multiply by 14%, to get 0.02625 lb of nitrogen added each time. Now divide this by 8 sf and you get 0.00328 lb nitrogen per sf. Now multiply by 1,000 sf and you find you added nitrogen at 3.28 lb/1,000 sf at each application.

My typical reference for established trees is 1-3 lbs of actual nitrogen for every 1,000 sf under canopy, each year. You just added roughly 6 lb/1,000 sf in 4 months to a new planting, during heat stress conditions, and then backed off on the watering. I think it might not be coincidence that two weeks ago it started to decline, and two weeks ago you added another dose of fertilizer.

So, I'm going with fertilizer burn.

Appreciate the math on that. Obviously I am pretty naive with fertilizing after doing this. Since it said 1 scoop per 4sqft every 4mo, I thought that another application now almost 4 after planting would be ok, but didn't think about fertilizer burn during heat. I suspect you're right though.

At this point would scraping away the soil that I can and replacing help if this is the case? Or is it too late and the nitrogen likely already leaked down into all of the soil from the pellets? The first time I worked it into the soil while planting, but this second time I just sprinkled on top and then applied another 2sqft bag of mulch over it to help retain moisture. I did not back off on watering since the latest fertilizer add a couple weeks ago, I actually increased thinking that it was dropping leaves due to underwatering.

For comparison, last year I did not fertilize the new Shantung at all, but you can see the pic of how that one turned out too, ha. I was gone over labor day when it was very hot and believe that it didn't get watered enough while I was gone.

 

[glocklt4]

Oh, and I just wanted to add that you had mentioned the mulch suffocating the roots. Mulch is very porous, so I would not be worried about it suffocating the roots. In fact, we actually recommend mulching up to 4" deep around trees. If it were clay piled up around tree, then yeah, you could cause an issue.

Got it, that makes sense then. When planting the tree I used the soil recommended by the nursery which seemed very good and like well draining soil. Some of that went on top of the outside edges of the root ball, but I made sure not to do too much near the trunk.

 

[glocklt4]

BTW, I actually noticed the tree dropping green leaves prior to the additional fertilizer and mulch. I know that in heat stress they can drop leaves to try and conserve water, so that's why I was thinking add (naively) fertilizer, add more mulch, and water more frequently. I haven't been watering every 2-3 days like when I initially planted it though. I thought that the 20gal water bag (which lasts almost a day), plus a decent soak every 3-4 days would be sufficient.

 

[Bullseye T&L]

Got it, that makes sense then. When planting the tree I used the soil recommended by the nursery which seemed very good and like well draining soil. Some of that went on top of the outside edges of the root ball, but I made sure not to do too much near the trunk.

I think you're good on the soil and mulch.

At this point would scraping away the soil that I can and replacing help if this is the case? Or is it too late and the nitrogen likely already leaked down into all of the soil from the pellets? The first time I worked it into the soil while planting, but this second time I just sprinkled on top and then applied another 2sqft bag of mulch over it to help retain moisture. I did not back off on watering since the latest fertilizer add a couple weeks ago, I actually increased thinking that it was dropping leaves due to underwatering.

For comparison, last year I did not fertilize the new Shantung at all, but you can see the pic of how that one turned out too, ha. I was gone over labor day when it was very hot and believe that it didn't get watered enough while I was gone.

I would try to get any of undissolved granules I could out of there, however you have to do it. Then I would go back to supplying plenty of water to dilute the concentrations. Just don't drown it. Since you're in Dallas, I hate to say it, but April is kind of late for a new planting, especially japanese maple with there thin leaves. So, stay on top of the watering until the rain returns in the Fall. Although root disease is a possibility, not enough water is usually the real problem. You could always treat soil with fungicide targeted at root diseases (phytopthera, pythium) if you're scared it's going to be an issue.

BTW, I actually noticed the tree dropping green leaves prior to the additional fertilizer and mulch. I know that in heat stress they can drop leaves to try and conserve water, so that's why I was thinking add (naively) fertilizer, add more mulch, and water more frequently.

I know. It's easy to see why you think it might be the same thing. But you just have to look at the individual facts and let them lead you to the answer.

Now, I still wouldn't rule out potential fungal disease as an option. If you think you want to get an arborist out, make sure you find somebody who likes to do the smaller PHC type work, and expect to pay them for a diagnosis.

 

[Bullseye T&L]

I thought that the 20gal water bag (which lasts almost a day), plus a decent soak every 3-4 days would be sufficient.

Hold on ... I just caught what you wrote in the last post. You're going through 20 gal a day from the bag? Are you doing that every day? Plus supplemental watering every 3-4 days.

 

[glocklt4]

Hold on ... I just caught what you wrote in the last post. You're going through 20 gal a day from the bag? Are you doing that every day? Plus supplemental watering every 3-4 days.

Appreciate all of your feedback. I'll get the fertilizer I can scraped away.

No, I may have mistyped. I have been filling the 20gal bag and doing supplemental at the same time. The bag is not as consistent in releasing water as I had hoped (maybe bugs get into holes and block), so that's why I do both at same time. In July I was probably doing every 4-5 days bag and supplemental, and then the past 2 weeks after I saw leaves dropping I increased to every 2-3 days maybe. I don't stick to a hard schedule since very busy lately, so hard to say for sure. In April-June we had a lot of soaking rain, but very little in July. We also have automatic irrigation which runs 27mins every M/W/F, but I'm not sure how much of that really gets to the tree vs grass. As you can see in the pictures, the grass is nice and green, so getting plenty of water.

Is there a good resource you recommend on proper watering schedule for a 50gal transplanted tree? I thought I read every 1-2 days when new, then slow down to 2-3 days starting 1-2mo later, then slow down again 3-4mo later but maintain that for a bout a year. I cannot find it now though.

 

[Bullseye T&L]

Appreciate all of your feedback. I'll get the fertilizer I can scrapped away.

No, I may have mistyped. I have been filling the 20gal bag and doing supplemental at the same time. The bag is not that consistent in releasing water, so that's why I do both at same time. In July I was probably doing every 4-5 days bag and supplemental, and then the past 2 weeks after I saw leaves dropping I increased to every 2-3 days maybe. I don't stick to a hard schedule since very busy lately, so hard to say for sure.

Is there a good resource you recommend on proper watering schedule for a 50gal transplanted tree? I thought I read every 1-2 days when new, then slow down to 2-3 days starting 1-2mo later, then slow down again 3-4mo later but maintain that for a bout a year. I cannot find it now though.

Oh, okay. Worried for second there

No, there's not really any hard and fast formula for watering. Depends on a lot of factors. You just want to make sure for the first month or two (depending on tree) the upper 4-6" stays moist, not wet, then adjust your watering accordingly. After a month or two (again depending on tree), you can skip water every few days, let the soil dry for day or two, then go back to keeping it moist for few days. This helps keep the fungal problems down. When the weather heats up, increase water. Which means if you planted right before summer, you're watering schedule for summer may be exactly the same as during the spring planting - hence, there is not really a "back off" on the watering. Again, you just have to watch the tree and and soil and decide which way to go.

It all depends on soil around the root ball, soil around the planting hole, temperature, soil amendments, planting hole size, etc. Kind of like raising kids,lol.

 

[Bullseye T&L]

I had a customer plant some dwarf loropetalums last year. Some were planted in mature beds where they were getting morning sun until about 1100 am. Others were planted next to a new block retaining wall, which had drainage built in behind it, had new garden soil added, and getting about an hour more midday sun than the others. She could not get over the fact that she was having to water the latter ones at twice the rate of the others. But she almost lost the ones on the wall before she finally came around. It's all of those factors, plus the fact that loropetalum is a slow grower, roots as well.

 

[glocklt4]

Oh, okay. Worried for second there

No, there's not really any hard and fast formula for watering. Depends on a lot of factors. You just want to make sure for the first month or two (depending on tree) the upper 4-6" stays moist, not wet, then adjust your watering accordingly. After a month or two (again depending on tree), you can skip water every few days, let the soil dry for day or two, then go back to keeping it moist for few days. This helps keep the fungal problems down. When the weather heats up, increase water. Which means if you planted right before summer, you're watering schedule for summer may be exactly the same as during the spring planting - hence, there is not really a "back off" on the watering. Again, you just have to watch the tree and and soil and decide which way to go.

It all depends on soil around the root ball, soil around the planting hole, temperature, soil amendments, planting hole size, etc. Kind of like raising kids,lol.

Haha thanks. I do wonder if the watering bag has been keeping too much moisture in the dirt built up around the trunk. I have removed it for now and am going to just water by hand to try and keep fungus down. I'll go ahead with removing the extra fertilizer/soil/mulch and replace, and keep a close eye on moisture. Besides that, seems like not a lot to do for it right now, except maybe an antifungal.

 

[glocklt4]

I had a customer plant some dwarf loropetalums last year. Some were planted in mature beds where they were getting morning sun until about 1100 am. Others were planted next to a new block retaining wall, which had drainage built in behind it, had new garden soil added, and getting about an hour more midday sun than the others. She could not get over the fact that she was having to water the latter ones at twice the rate of the others. But she almost lost the ones on the wall before she finally came around. It's all of those factors, plus the fact that loropetalum is a slow grower, roots as well.

yeah, lots of factors at play for sure, so I can understand that. Our clay soil here holds a lot of moisture in at the bottom, kind of like a plastic liner. The soil at the top is what dries out quickly though in this heat. I had hoped that a new tree like this would still pull the moisture it needs from the bottom of the hole where clay was likely holding extra (we did put a layer of dirt on top of the clay when planting though. I HATE our clay here, ugh).

 

[Bullseye T&L]

Haha thanks. I do wonder if the watering bag has been keeping too much moisture in the dirt built up around the trunk. I have removed it for now and am going to just water by hand to try and keep fungus down. I'll go ahead with removing the extra fertilizer/soil/mulch and replace, and keep a close eye on moisture. Besides that, seems like not a lot to do for it right now, except maybe an antifungal.

You're not going to do anything harmful by applying a fungicide treatment targeted at root diseases, like phytopthera. Going back to the sweetgum, it is possible that it had developed root rot prior to removal, and phytopthera does persist in the soil. Just an insurance policy. Man, don't be scared to call out an arborist. They may see something we're completely missing here doing this with pictures.

 

[Del_]

Was the burlap removed?

With balled and burlaped lots of times dirt is thrown into the bag on top of the root system and this can throw people off when planting trees and shrubs to the right depth. This dirt needs removed until the surface level that it was planted and grown in the field is reached.

Generally container grown is best as the whole root system is intact where balled and burlaped usually has some of it's root system cut off.

It's very important with container grown to inspect the root system to be sure no roots are circling the container.

Often times balled and burlaped trees have the ends of the roots more or less torn off Vs clean cuts. It's important that these rough tears are pruned again to remove these tears.