Small to large bid transition?

[Blakesmaster]

I just bid the biggest job I've ever bid. I bid it poorly. A lot of oaks in a backyard needed to come down. Wood stays, brush gets chipped and hauled. As I'm adding up the $ for each individual tree in my head I got to a total I couldn't conceive of asking for the job. As the clock's ticking ( keep in mind we need work right now ) I didn't want to come off as unprofessional or inexperienced to the customer so I spit out a number far less than I originally totaled, and the worst thing happened. They said "ok". Driving away from the job, rethinking these trees I wanted to bang my head against the steering wheel. It's not that we can't handle the technicality of these trees but it's going to take a lot of time and patience to get them on the ground.

So, two questions.
Is this something other people just starting out have come across and how hard was it to begin giving those higher bids?

and also,
Do you think taking too much time while bidding a job, looking over everything twice to make sure comes across as unprofessional?

 

[alanarbor]

As I'm adding up the $ for each individual tree in my head I got to a total I couldn't conceive of asking for the job.

That is an issue that is hard to get around. Remember, you're talking about the client's budget, not yours. They usually have more of it than you......:censored: It gets easier with time.

With big jobs, I usually stop thinking about each indidvidual tree, and start thinking how many days. That usually makes it a little less daunting.

Another thing, it's perfectly professional to ask for the time you need to give an accurate bid. That is in the best interset of the client rather than by flying by the seat of your pants.

Consider this "Mr Prospect, I'm going to need a little more time to put this together for you. This is a large project, and I want to make sure I furnish you with an accurate and complete proposal. I'll have it ready for you by (insert time frame here)

even on more routine bids, I ask the client for 5-10 minutes alone to complete my proposal, so I don't have the pressure that comes with being "stared down" while I am trying to get my numbers together. Sometimes you have clients that are really pressed for time, and you need to be on your toes, but you should know what kind of time they can spend with you at the beginning or before the appointment.

 

[treeman82]

Depending on whom I am dealing with, I'll sometimes tell people "I'll have a price for you in a few days." I will normally call them back the next day, or even later that day... but it helps me to walk away and think about things before I blurt out a number.

 

[Mikecutstrees]

I have the same problem. Jobs that add up to 2,3, 4 thousand etc, I always think are too much and I screw myself. I'm getting better though. I always tell the customer I will call them later that night or tomorrow. This gives me time to figure out exactly how long it will take, trips to dump chips/ wood. Tractor time if it's big wood etc etc. Bid it correctly if they can't afford it, then they can do it in smaller chunks. Good luck I find bidding to be sometimes harder than the actual work..... Mike

 

[osb_mail]

Yeah go with the I will call you back deal for big jobs . Kind like dump a girl when you were in high school easier to break the news on the phone .I would even rather do bids with emails but thats probably a little a head of the times for most .

 

[BC WetCoast]

Just tell them you need to go back to the office and crunch the numbers to get them a fair deal. You need to confirm "dump cost for this volume of chips" or talk to your "firewood cutter" to confirm value, whatever reason you want to use. This way you can prepare a typed quotation, after thinking about all the costs involved. The sober second thought, so to speak.

If you underbid, keep good track of your times and use the data for future reference. And try and minimize your 'out of pocket' expenses. It's one thing to not make as much money as you want and another to pay out more than you bring in.

 

[ropensaddle]

I sometimes figure large jobs at hourly rate and tell them 125 ph
me and one helper. They get my bucket, grapple, stump machine
and hard working men for that. I make better than that on some
bids but that will keep the lights on! If they balk at hourly I will
then tell them it will take a while to figure, ask if they have a fax
and either fax or come back when I have it figured. It does not
take burning your self too many times to learn to bid higher than
you think you should! One other thing don't be afraid to say mam,
this job is large and I have to make sure I am covered ,so my bid
may sound high but if the job goes well a discounted rate can apply!
This does many things one, they tend to be less nit picky two they
won't throw in extra work stack their leaves in your brush or the
remains of an old shed






Also, a large job is sometimes better to do in quarters
so it does not sound too much for them! I want what its
worth and try to avoid thinking what they can pay. I must
make a dollar and really don't by the time every expense
for the year is added, seems better off working at wallyworld.
I don't get every job but make money on the ones I do.
It all goes back into the business though and that is the tough
part!

 

[treeclimber jul]

Ya, sometimes the number they hear makes them kinda back off.

learn to read the costumer and that will tell you how to propose the bid..........Sometimes.....

 

[mckeetree]

It doesn't bother me one bit to look them right in the eye 90 seconds after they show me what they want and tell them the old big money. Because I intend to make money. I have some people tell me I must be out of my mind and I have been ran away a couple times but we still stay busy year round. And we are really not over charging whatsoever, their are just some El Cheapo tree guys around here that make us look expensive.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

There will allways be a problem with price and expectations. Quite often, when I've pared my numbers down before talking it over with the client I still end up kicking myself, no negotiating room, they want more, they want it tomorrow...

Day rates are good, but another way is to bid the work in sections; this clump here, that one there. Areas where cleanup is co-mingled between trees and time can be saved from the per tree bid rate.

Another way to do come down on price, is to bid it as "at my convenience". If it is big enough and near "the shop" you can pick up parts of it on the way to or from other jobs.

"Ok guys, we will meet at the Smith property at 7 and work till 10 because we have a 10:30 power drop a mile away..."

"This removal is around a 3/4 day, so we can bang it out and then go to the Smith property to get everyone a full day in, if we can get the first one done fast and clean, then you can get some easy OT at the Smith's"

 

[treeseer]

A lot of oaks in a backyard needed to come down.

Why?

Maybe the bid is getting too high because you are talking about removing trees that would be better off pruned.

 

[Dadatwins]

Underbidding in a rush is a mistake everyone makes. Did it to myself recently Getting back to the potential in a day on a big job is not unprofessional, shows you are trying to get an accurate picture of the work. What is unprofessional is underbidding and then backing out of the job, that is bad business. Agree bidding by the tree on large jobs can give a bloated number, sometimes best to bid out the day for you and crew. Since you are just starting out take the job and learn from it. Be careful.

 

[frodo]

Why?

Maybe the bid is getting too high because you are talking about removing trees that would be better off pruned.

will someone put a muzzle on this guy? maybe they are all dead, thats not the point this fellow is asking about bidding... i like what rope and dada said. if you go out and work cheap enough times, sooner or later you will learn that its just not worth fifteen hundred or what ever. you could go out and work at mcdonalds if you want to earn that kind of money. good luck.

 

[ropensaddle]

Why?

Maybe the bid is getting too high because you are talking about removing trees that would be better off pruned.

Hey seer sometimes you are right but the customer is the boss.
I try to stress the importance of trees to the customer but
if they want it cut, it gets cut. Most of them are brown with
huge holes in their trunks I get some trim work but
I hate to say most of that work goes to hacks. I am high
on trim work, as; I do it right and take my time and customer
does not want to pay for that. I end up being called later
after some hack has killed their huge oak by topping it
and then can explain to them what the right way would have
been!

 

[Dadatwins]

I agree the customer is boss, but most times they are uninformed and uneducated about the trees on their property. Many tree cutters will simply advise to clear cut everything and start over based on lack of knowledge about trees and benefits. Some will simply clear cut because it is all they know how to do. Playing up to a homeowners fears about live trees falling and a 'cut it down before it falls' attitude is hack work at its finest. A good arborist will advise what can be saved and maintained and what should go. I have found pruning work to be a good long term form of income as opposed to a removal and never see the customer again. Of course bleeding the customer of $$$ pruning trees that should be removed is bad business also. There has to be a balance. It has been my experience that most people will shop removal prices going for the lowest bidder, yet pruning work they will opt for experience and knowledge and not be so fixed on price. Offering the option of pruning is usually cheaper than removal, but this depends on the circumstance. JMHO

 

[Blakesmaster]

Thanks for all the great input guys! I was too busy with work this weekend to even log on and check your ideas. No, the trees are not so unhealthy that they need to come down but the customer had a lot of other trees in the yard we are saving and, well, it's what the customer wanted. I talked it over with the guys and came to the conclusion that because we weren't hauling the wood is most likely the reason I bid it so low. The chips won't amount to much much and we have a dump sight close by so I didn't figure in much of anything for fuel. The problem arose when I didn't slap a high dollar on the trees for how technically hard they are. We do difficult, skilled work and therefore need to be compensated for it. Just because the job may only take us a day or two of tough cutting doesn't mean it's worth our regular "run up a spruce and crash every limb straight to the ground" rate. We shouldn't lose any money on it because there's not much in the way of expenses but we won't make what the job is really worth. At least I learned from it and I'm sure will learn much more after a 14 hour day in the trees. I will follow your advice and take my time, even call the customer back for the larger jobs from now on. Thanks again!

 

[TomSawyer]

Blake, I'm feeling your pain right now. I just bid 2 LARGE maple removals for 1700, figuring on 3 days. My first estimate was 2100, and that felt high. The job took us all week, and I used every piece of gear I have. I barely broke even. Here's what got me: I bid 2100 for complete removal, 1500 for drop and drive, no clean up. I then changed my mind because the stems were so big, there is no way the customer could have dealt with them. I couldn't leave him with that mess. So he calls me back and proposes that I take everything over 18" and chip all the brush, leaving him with the firewood sized pieces, for 1700. I bit, and I shouldn't have. Since we had to handle all the wood, we might as well have taken it all. Lesson learned! BTW the stump measured 69" across at it's widest point. A hell of a tree.

Keep posting Blake, I enjoy reading them

 

[Blakesmaster]

That's rough Tom. We actually didn't make out too bad with that job. Kicked it's a** in a little over a day with probably only $200 in personal expenses. It's not that we didn't make much money ( took in more than we did last weekend ) but we didn't make what the job was worth. My pocket could easily be a grand heavier right now and the customer would still be singing the praises of our sweet deal. Yeah well, my sore legs/arm/back/brain/everything from pushing myself too many hours in the tree on Saturday taught me a good lesson.

By the way, even though you may have had to move the wood, isn't it still cheaper than spending the gas money to haul it all away. Seems that's where I get bitten every time in those types of jobs.

 

[oldirty]

Why?

Maybe the bid is getting too high because you are talking about removing trees that would be better off pruned.

takes longer to make a tree look good than it does to bring that same bad larry down.





more time in the saddle and some ridicule from your partner's blakes and you'll be hitting your quotes.

 

[PTS]

For almost six years now I have struggled with this topic. Always wanting to be the nice guy..... I have come to the conclusion that, if I can't make money then let someone else do it. I have given up on the quoted price. I bid everything as "amount of time to complete project times hourly rate" and that is what it costs. I give my customers an approximate on time and we are almost always within an hour on our estimates but if we run into something that takes longer it isn't my fault. Those type circumstances usually involve a customer waiting too long to have tree work done when the tree should have been dealt with years ago.

We had a project last fall that I looked at that was going to run around $28,000.00 for a private client and around Iowa thats a chunk of change. I was concerned about the money but I stuck to my guns and told that that is what it was going to take. They followed up with that and added a bunch more work to the project. We removed 225, 100 plus feet tall oak, and basswood trees from around their house to give them more yard, full removal and stump grinding and their bill totaled over $100,000.00 and they were pleased with that.

If you break down your project and ask yourself if there was only one or two trees here what would it cost and then if the next couple were at the neighbors and then next somewhere else your total would be $X.00 for each project. Now what is the difference if they are all on the same property, only the savings of time and gas from not moving equipment from place to place. The reality is you still have the same time and the same labor expense whether they are all on the same property or not.

On projects around here that exceed $50,000.00 we usually figure in 5-10% discount just because of equipment moving expenses being lessened. It helps us secure more bids and you know where your crew will be for a while.

Hope this helps. Just remember we all love what we do, however if we aren't making money we will be un-employed and doing something we don't want to do.