soft dutchmen

[Kiwilogger]

I know there are a lot of variations of a swing dutchman and a lot that I have never seen. But, everything that worked has somewhere around a third of the lower part of the hinge cut. How would they work otherwise? Kiwilogger do you know of one?
Going back again and looking at the film at 20 sec. in the tree looks to me like it has a pretty good lean. For me that much wedging would take some time, but them I'm a whimp.

No, John, that's what the dutch cut is, cutting off one side of the holding wood. But my point is, that combine over a third of the holding wood cut off, the rest of it so thin as to be nearly non existent, and then to put a back cut that is at best level with the notch all into a tree that is supposed to be a heavy leaner, is, in my book, not good practice.

Don't get me wrong, I've put thousands of dutch cuts in, all fallers use it.

 

[John Ellison]

But he was cutting as it came around, the hinge was not thin until it came around and was headed in the right direction. And I did'nt see any trees that were close enough to have been brushed on the way down, so no problem with it coming back over the stump.
Everybody has their own take on it. I have to say that I think that he knows what he is doing.

 

[056kid]

No, John, that's what the dutch cut is, cutting off one side of the holding wood. But my point is, that combine over a third of the holding wood cut off, the rest of it so thin as to be nearly non existent, and then to put a back cut that is at best level with the notch all into a tree that is supposed to be a heavy leaner, is, in my book, not good practice.

Don't get me wrong, I've put thousands of dutch cuts in, all fallers use it.

Having cut so many, you sure arent too good at recognizing a good one...

 

[Hddnis]

Swinging the tree with a dutchman is many times faster than beating wedges and hoping they work. Face it, you are working against gravity either way and counting on a small percentage of the original wood to hold. Pounding a wedge adds a lateral shock and a momentary spike in all the forces involved.

The comment about the hinge is lacking perspective because as was pointed out the hinge isn't so small until after the lean of the tree has been shifted to the desired direction.

Any time someone holds up a law or a book to give authority to a braggadocios claim you can be sure they don't know jack about what their saying. If it is really that way over there then they need a revolution and I know we wrote the book on that!




Mr. HE

 

[super3]

He never said it was a heavy leaner...he said "all the limb weight was to the right". The opposite way he wanted it to lay, the reason for the swing.

 

[Kiwilogger]

Having cut so many, you sure arent too good at recognizing a good one...

Recognising a good what, a good dutchman?

I guess the tree went over. It worked. If that's the only qualifier, then she's home and hosed.

 

[056kid]

Just one last little thing to say.

Falling trees kills people. More than it should. Simple as that.

Keep promoting that cut, cutting off the holding wood, low backcut, and then say to all and sundry that's excellent falling technique, then you continue to foster a culture of potentially unsafe practices.

It can not be refuted that holding wood and incorrect backcut location contribute to far too many falling deaths, worldwide. That and falling objects.

Oh, and tarzan, you guys invented cable logging, that's undeniable. But to suggest you perfected it is :spam:

opcorn:

I guess I understand your concern but you are saying things that are quite arrogant imo, but who am I to speak ha.


When you have guys that have learned from people that learned from guys that did SOO MANY unimaginable feats in engineering with little more than cross cuts, axes, cables, steel, water and animals, individuals that where able to move mountains with there nogins so to speak. and drive little sticks into the ground with 400 foot tall trees, you had better believe that they knew what they where doing...

Cmon you are scrutinizing a stump over the computer, and like you said,
the tree hit the deck and fell into the desired lay, what the hell else is supposed to happen in that scenario??

sure you can babble on about holding wood and low back cuts but when it comes town to puttin the mayo on the bread, the guy is gettin his job done and from what I can tell, he is not dead so he must have things under control.


These old timers could tell us what we need to do..............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcEto_Q8MlY

 

[RRSsawshop]

Kiwilogger,most of these dutchmans are used only under certain conditions,you do realize that right???We dont just go out and cut "ultra soft dutchmans" on every tree,just to watch them come around!!! Conditions warrant what we use!!!
I have see too many people rely on wedges to help with "lean" and snap the hinge while pounding a stack of them in!! Wedges are just a crutch(tool)you have to know WHEN to use them and WHEN not to!!!!

 

[Kiwilogger]

OK, I deleted the last post I made as I didn't want to be seen as preaching safety to a bunch of loggers, particularly ones that do know plenty. Kind of like wearing out a keyboard for nought. But seeing as how it got quoted without me realising it, I'll just repost it below....


Just one last little thing to say.

Falling trees kills people. More than it should. Simple as that.

Keep promoting that cut, cutting off the holding wood, low backcut, and then say to all and sundry that's excellent falling technique, then you continue to foster a culture of potentially unsafe practices.

It can not be refuted that holding wood and incorrect backcut location contribute to far too many falling deaths, worldwide. That and falling objects.

Oh, and tarzan, you guys invented cable logging, that's undeniable. But to suggest you perfected it is :spam:



opcorn:




And in reply to some comments, I never said the guy wasn't a good faller, I said it was not good technique, and was slow. What some of you guys somehow seem to forget, statistically, more experienced men are killed falling than green ones. There should be no need to explain that, and some of you would do well to remember it.

I feel like I've been :deadhorse: so I'll sign out now, before I'm blacklisted.

:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[RRSsawshop]

Falling timber is a dangerous occupation in the first place...A friend of mine was killed falling,limb snapped as the tree hit the ground and a baseball bat size piece came flying back and hit him in the side of the head!!!ANYTHING about this occupation can kill you!!!When its your time to go ITS YOUR TIME TO GO can be in the woods can be in the shower!!!!!

 

[056kid]

OK, I deleted the last post I made as I didn't want to be seen as preaching safety to a bunch of loggers, particularly ones that do know plenty. Kind of like wearing out a keyboard for nought. But seeing as how it got quoted without me realising it, I'll just repost it below....


Just one last little thing to say.

Falling trees kills people. More than it should. Simple as that.

Keep promoting that cut, cutting off the holding wood, low backcut, and then say to all and sundry that's excellent falling technique, then you continue to foster a culture of potentially unsafe practices.

It can not be refuted that holding wood and incorrect backcut location contribute to far too many falling deaths, worldwide. That and falling objects.

Oh, and tarzan, you guys invented cable logging, that's undeniable. But to suggest you perfected it is :spam:




And in reply to some comments, I never said the guy wasn't a good faller, I said it was not good technique, and was slow. What some of you guys somehow seem to forget, statistically, more experienced men are killed falling than green ones. There should be no need to explain that, and some of you would do well to remember it.

I feel like I've been :deadhorse: so I'll sign out now, before I'm blacklisted.

:hmm3grin2orange:

You can stick to your methods and we will stay with ours...


I thik you are a :yoyo: though

 

[Danger Cat]

Size Does Not Matter, or so I have been told...

Wow.

Lucky it was only a little tree, almost no hinge, backcut the same height as the felling notch, pretty bad cutting in my book.

Personally, I can't understand why a "standard" dutchman wouldn't have worked equally as well to turn that tree, with under half the time taken as using the technique shown.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see the benefit in putting all those cuts in on the dutch cut side.

There is only Godspeed involved.
It works on any sized tree, here is the caveot, the wood on the stump has to be tough and stringy. Otherwise the tree breaks off and goes sideways.
Did the tree not swing around? Anymore holding wood left and it's wood pull, then dedock by the scaler... Or an explanation to the cutting boss if it is noticed.
There is nothing in front to collide with so a taller back cut is not neccessary, the caveot for this, the cutting boss wants a quality job and flush butts are good. Who want to saw on the butt after it has been in the dirt?
Over here it is called a face cut.
The wood in these trees is really stringy. There is a good chance it would have stopped, then while you are sawing again it breaks off sideways because the forward momentum is gone.
Anyone can ram, slam, and jam. It is not always about time, quality takes precedence on this propery.
All those cuts let it swing around without stopping or breaking off by setting down GENTLY on the Dutchmen.
So therefore you are mistaken about the extra cuts.
If a person was to ask why before engaging their mouth (keyboard) you might actually learn something from this dumby.



Unless you have cut everywhere on the planet, there is still some learning to be had!

 

[smokechase II]

Safe back-cut

Kiwi:

Regarding the back-cut height. It does not have to be a regulation 2" or whatever your local spec is - if there is no reason to protect against a butt coming back.

If there is no tree(s), hillside, rock, logs or other obstacles to cause the butt to come back over the stump there is no reason to have stump shot. (Also, some trees at the edge of meadows can have thick sweeping limbs that will push a butt back.)

Look at the end of the video, nowhere does the lay offer any butt kick back as everything is down and its going downhill anyway. If its your company policy to leave a higher back-cut on every tree fine, but don't say that "incorrect backcut location contribute" when that can be refuted. On a tree by tree basis.

In fact, with the greater efficiency of a matching face and back-cut it is a quicker / flat stump for commercial purposes and less wedging is needed because of that efficiency. I.e., when fighting a lean with wedges, the further the back-cut height is from the apex of the face the greater the wedging effort will need to be.

=========

Time at the stump and vertical awareness.

Its not that important on this tree but note the cutters looking up fairly decently during the flat of the face and during some of the back-cut. Not at all during the slanted face nor the multiple soft cuts.

Its not just needing strong holding wood that should take this cut usually out of consideration for a hazard tree faller. Any technique that takes your awareness away from dangers because of the focus needed to complete it should be a prime safety thought.

 

[smokechase II]

stump time

You could have mentioned that he spent a little extra time atthe stump loking at his saw because it was pinched.

 

[Jacob J.]

Good video. This is an older trick, which was more popular back when saws were slower. Another trick a guy can use is to take the 'wedge' from your face cut, chop it in half, and tuck that piece of wood on one side of your face (whichever side you want the tree to kick away from.) Then cut your holding wood a little thinner on that side.

You could have mentioned that he spent a little extra time at the stump looking at his saw because it was pinched.

I noticed that. There had to have been some kind of weight on that side of the tree...

 

[Greystoke]

There is only Godspeed involved.
It works on any sized tree, here is the caveot, the wood on the stump has to be tough and stringy. Otherwise the tree breaks off and goes sideways.
Did the tree not swing around? Anymore holding wood left and it's wood pull, then dedock by the scaler... Or an explanation to the cutting boss if it is noticed.
There is nothing in front to collide with so a taller back cut is not neccessary, the caveot for this, the cutting boss wants

a quality job and flush butts are good. Who want to saw on the butt after it has been in the dirt?

Over here it is called a face cut.
The wood in these trees is really stringy. There is a good chance it would have stopped, then while you are sawing again it breaks off sideways because the forward momentum is gone.
Anyone can ram, slam, and jam. It is not always about time, quality takes precedence on this propery.
All those cuts let it swing around without stopping or breaking off by setting down GENTLY on the Dutchmen.
So therefore you are mistaken about the extra cuts.
If a person was to ask why before engaging their mouth (keyboard) you might actually learn something from this dumby.



Unless you have cut everywhere on the planet, there is still some learning to be had!

Amen!:agree2:

 

[Greystoke]

=smokechase II;1746366]Kiwi:

Regarding the back-cut height. It does not have to be a regulation 2" or whatever your local spec is - if there is no reason to protect against a butt coming back.

If there is no tree(s), hillside, rock, logs or other obstacles to cause the butt to come back over the stump there is no reason to have stump shot. (Also, some trees at the edge of meadows can have thick sweeping limbs that will push a butt back.)

Look at the end of the video, nowhere does the lay offer any butt kick back as everything is down and its going downhill anyway. If its your company policy to leave a higher back-cut on every tree fine, but don't say that "incorrect backcut location contribute" when that can be refuted. On a tree by tree basis.


In fact, with the greater efficiency of a matching face and back-cut it is a quicker / flat stump for commercial purposes and less wedging is needed because of that efficiency. I.e., when fighting a lean with wedges, the further the back-cut height is from the apex of the face the greater the wedging effort will need to be.

:agree2:

=========

Time at the stump and vertical awareness.

Its not that important on this tree but note the cutters looking up fairly decently during the flat of the face and during some of the back-cut. Not at all during the slanted face nor the multiple soft cuts.

I notice that you are always pointing this out(vertical awareness), which is good, but...not everybody is just a hazard tree faller. In the work environment that I come from, we were both "hazard tree fallers" and production timber fallers. We had to distinguish between the trees that presented a significant hazard, and the ones that did not. I am not saying that a faller should never look up, but if a production faller spent 6-7 hours a day, 6-7 days a week looking up each tree as if it were going to crumble over on top of him(like one would with a hazard tree)...his neck vertebrae would be fused together in a week. The tree in this vid looked to me like a nice sound fir tree, in a clean looking stand of timber, and would probably be a good place to take a nap on a warm summer day with no worries about dangers above...that is if they weren't cutting it all! dang loggers! lol!

Its not just needing strong holding wood that should take this cut usually out of consideration for a hazard tree faller. Any technique that takes your awareness away from dangers because of the focus needed to complete it should be a prime safety thought.

Most Hazard trees, snags, etc, that I have fell, rarely had ANY strong holding wood.

 

[Greystoke]

You could have mentioned that he spent a little extra time atthe stump loking at his saw because it was pinched.

Actually happens sometimes when a guy is swinging a tree...as it is a very ticklish move. I have watched guys swing trees, that have been falling timber for 40 solid years, get their saw pinched momentarily just like that. Again...distinguishing when to "run like a rabbit", and when to hang tight, as the "environment that I come from", if you ran away from every tree as if it were going to kill you, you would be so worn out at the end of the day that pure fatigue would get you killed, let alone smashing numerous power saws.

 

[056kid]

:agree2:

lots of guys obcess over all the wrong stuff.

 

[fmaglin]

:agree2:

lots of guys obcess over all the wrong stuff.

:agree2: