Some amateur sharpening questions

[StoneyMeadowMaple]

He do

You might also see if he has a bench vice to mount the saw and bar in to hold everything steady while sharpening.

He does, it’s just to the left in that photo. When we were in high school (his daughter and I) that was a fairly clean garage, since then he has accumulated a lot of “valuable”stuff, so it’s hard to find the garage

 

[J D]

He does, it’s just to the left in that photo. When we were in high school (his daughter and I) that was a fairly clean garage, since then he has accumulated a lot of “valuable”stuff, so it’s hard to find the garage

I'd imagine a lot of members here can relate to that... I know I can

 

[StoneyMeadowMaple]

I'd imagine a lot of members here can relate to that... I know I can

Oh, I can Identify, i keep working on improving

 

[H-Ranch]

I'd imagine a lot of members here can relate to that... I know I can

In... as both an amateur sharpener AND garage accumulator.

 

[StoneyMeadowMaple]

In... as both an amateur sharpener AND garage accumulator.

I would like to think that I am a better than average sharpener, but I am a professional garage accumulator

 

[muddy42]

Just my view, but forget about all the gizmos, guides and 2 in 1s - they just get in the way of seeing what's going on during the sharpening process. Study the shape of a new chain until it is burned in your brain - pictures, youtube, compare to a new chain etc. Then stick the bar in a vice and practice again and again. Sharpen often and don't wait for chains to get really blunt. Replace files often. Take your time, look from above and the side.

 

[StoneyMeadowMaple]

Just my view, but forget about all the gizmos, guides and 2 in 1s - they just get in the way of seeing what's going on during the sharpening process. Study the shape of a new chain until it is burned in your brain - pictures, youtube, compare to a new chain etc. Then stick the bar in a vice and practice again and again. Sharpen often and don't wait for chains to get really blunt. Replace files often. Take your time, look from above and the side.

I agree with you on this, its harder than it should be to impress on people though. Particularly people who have been doing it wrong for decades

 

[muddy42]

I agree with you on this, its harder than it should be to impress on people though. Particularly people who have been doing it wrong for decades

Yup. Im always learning - other people have helped find (and probably will continue to) find minor flaws in my technique. Another thing is I now buy the same chains for all my saws - the same Stihl 30 degree semi-chisel profile, even for my milling setup. Same muscle memory, same shape.

 

[StoneyMeadowMaple]

Yup. Im always learning - other people have helped find (and probably will continue to) find minor flaws in my technique. Another thing is I now buy the same chains for all my saws - the same Stihl 30 degree semi-chisel profile, even for my milling setup. Same muscle memory, same shape.

Semi chisel on the mill? How well does that work?

 

[muddy42]

Semi chisel on the mill? How well does that work?

Very well actually. When people talk about ripping versus crosscut chain, its really only the top plate angle that's different, maybe 10 degrees versus 30 degrees and an argument that 10 degrees gives a better finished wood. I have tried 10 degrees but have gone back to 30 degrees - again so I am sharpening with the same muscle memory, but also I didn't find it made much difference. If your sharpening is even and you don't push or see-saw the bar when milling, the finish is very good. Plus I also mostly mill knotty/gnarly oak, so a lot of my milling is partially cross the grain, if that makes sense.

 

[StoneyMeadowMaple]

Very well actually. When people talk about ripping versus crosscut chain, its really only the top plate angle that's different, maybe 10 degrees versus 30 degrees and an argument that 10 degrees gives a better finished wood. I have tried 10 degrees but have gone back to 30 degrees - again so I am sharpening with the same muscle memory, but also I didn't find it made much difference. If your sharpening is even and you don't push or see-saw the bar when milling, the finish is very good. Plus I also mostly mill knotty/gnarly oak, so a lot of my milling is partially cross the grain, if that makes sense.

My ripping chain has 3 different shaped chisels. A full an half and one that has almost no top on it. Be interested to try, I did some freehand with the 550xp and wasn’t impressed, but that’s not much of a comparison.

 

[Fellin Feller]

 

[J D]

My ripping chain has 3 different shaped chisels. A full an half and one that has almost no top on it. Be interested to try, I did some freehand with the 550xp and wasn’t impressed, but that’s not much of a comparison.

Can you post some pic's of that chain... sounds like some adaption of Granberg chain with the "topless" cutters.
The top plate filing angle causes the cutters to pull sideways & cut a wider kerf so the bar doesn't get bound by the end grain pertruding into the cut when x-cutting. This isn't necessary when milling as you aren't cutting across the grain so any angle greater than 0° will work & a reduced angle lightens the load (all be it minimally)
Full Chisel cutters also lighten the load slightly but take more keeping sharp

 

[StoneyMeadowMaple]

Can you post some pic's of that chain... sounds like some adaption of Granberg chain with the "topless" cutters.
The top plate filing angle causes the cutters to pull sideways & cut a wider kerf so the bar doesn't get bound by the end grain pertruding into the cut when x-cutting. This isn't necessary when milling as you aren't cutting across the grain so any angle greater than 0° will work & a reduced angle lightens the load (all be it minimally)
Full Chisel cutters also lighten the load slightly but take more keeping sharp

I was mistaken about the tooth profile, I need to go looking for the double ended bar chain, because I feel quite sure it had the profile I described. This is 2 full, 2 thin and it is in fact somewhat semi chisel. I have not yet used it and can’t speak to it’s performance, but I have 3 of them for the 56” bar.

 

[Chucksta]

There comes a certain point, where you can't really teach an old dog new tricks. It's like teaching a cow to sing.. It sounds like crap and annoys the cow.
There comes a certain point, where all that matters is quick, acceptable, easily repeatable results.
For the OP's friend.. all he needs is a Stihl 2 in 1. It'll sharpen the chain and set the rakers ( depth gauges ) in one shot. Or rather, in three or four strokes after every tank. Could you or I do better.. free hand, whatever hand, whatever method you'd care to name? Sure.. But wait.. There's that thing called a learning curve. Takes all the fun out of it for a newby.
Remember the first chain you tried to sharpen? Tell me, really.. how'd that go? Oh yeah.. that "learning curve " thing..
Realistically, the Stihl 2 in 1 should be called a "sharp keeper", NOT a "Sharpener". But, it will let a rank amateur sharpen a chain in the shortest time possible.
Also, it will teach you what 30 degrees feels like.. Every time you're off a bit, you get the bump when the butt of the tool hits the blade.
The design of them virtually stops you from screwing up. Just count your strokes, and mark the first cutter.
I've let people touch my saws who have no idea that I basically no longer hand sharpen. The common comment is " Boy.. is that ever sharp!".
Replacement files can be bought on Amazon, but they were actually cheaper at the Stihl Dealership. 3 files for $10.00 CDN.. Decent quality too!
I still keep my hand filing stuff ready, and my bench grinder for hitting stuff you can't see inside a tree, But, for everyday sharpening, gimmee a 2 in 1 anytime.

 

[J D]

I was mistaken about the tooth profile, I need to go looking for the double ended bar chain, because I feel quite sure it had the profile I described. This is 2 full, 2 thin and it is in fact somewhat semi chisel. I have not yet used it and can’t speak to it’s performance, but I have 3 of them for the 56” bar.

Thats what's known as a Granberg chain grind (& a fairly poorly executed example if you ask me).
It should cut better with a greater top plate cutting angle (more "hook") & a bit taken off the rakers.