Some Ideas On Milky Hydraulic Fluid !!!!!!

[treejunkie13]

This was happening on Melvin (the yoader) and the Kobelco loader on Monday. We're having some really (for here) cold weather. The loggers were saying that their problem with this would have been solved by changing to a lighter grade oil for the cold weather. Their solution for the day? Don't let go of the controls.

Joe is acclimated to Forks. He might take a while to get used to your climate.

"Don't let go of the controls." I like that, but we have already tried that.

"Joe is acclimated to Forks." He is temper-mental, no doubt.

10w oil recommended 4 here, by the Komatsu tech. What w oil is common out there?

 

[Bushler]

I'm inclined to believe that the plugged filters/screen was causing the pump to cavitate, frothing the oil. The air entrained in the oil was then compressed, and that was why the boom would continue to move after you released the joy stick. Assuming it didn't move much. If it moved a lot then it wasn't compressed air, but a stuck valve. How much would the boom move after releasing the control?

Water and crud are bad on hydrualic systems, but air is equally bad on pumps. That noise you hear when a pump cavitates is actully explosions, like internal combustion. The pump gears compress the oil/air and ita actully fires like a diesel engine....results are a chipping away at the pump gears, deteriorating the pumps performance.

The solonoid valves on a Deere are inside the front part of the engine compartment, accessed throught he door under the operators copartment. Look up tight to the frame. Should be a bank of valves with wires comming out of them. You can test the valve function by switching the wires around until you isolate the faulty valve.

Take some old carpet for a pad, its tight working conditions and a pad to lay on helps.

RTFM (read the fkng manual) , and also the parts book if you have it, will show the schematics for the wiring to the valves.

Been there.

 

[captainsteep]

I'm inclined to believe that the plugged filters/screen was causing the pump to cavitate, frothing the oil. The air entrained in the oil was then compressed, and that was why the boom would continue to move after you released the joy stick. Assuming it didn't move much. If it moved a lot then it wasn't compressed air, but a stuck valve. How much would the boom move after releasing the control?

Water and crud are bad on hydrualic systems, but air is equally bad on pumps. That noise you hear when a pump cavitates is actully explosions, like internal combustion. The pump gears compress the oil/air and ita actully fires like a diesel engine....results are a chipping away at the pump gears, deteriorating the pumps performance.

The solonoid valves on a Deere are inside the front part of the engine compartment, accessed throught he door under the operators copartment. Look up tight to the frame. Should be a bank of valves with wires comming out of them. You can test the valve function by switching the wires around until you isolate the faulty valve.

Take some old carpet for a pad, its tight working conditions and a pad to lay on helps.

RTFM (read the fkng manual) , and also the parts book if you have it, will show the schematics for the wiring to the valves.

Been there.

yes i have the shopbook (bible) on my machine and with all the input you guys have given me will also help, I have found all the bleeder valves and the proper way to do the procedure. My mistake was after i trucked it home from forks wa. and put it back together i just added new fluid and started running it without bleeding the air out,(would have been better to do at the shop then 90 miles away) well live and learn.

 

[Cowboy Billy]

I'm inclined to believe that the plugged filters/screen was causing the pump to cavitate, frothing the oil. The air entrained in the oil was then compressed, and that was why the boom would continue to move after you released the joy stick. Assuming it didn't move much. If it moved a lot then it wasn't compressed air, but a stuck valve. How much would the boom move after releasing the control?

Water and crud are bad on hydrualic systems, but air is equally bad on pumps. That noise you hear when a pump cavitates is actully explosions, like internal combustion. The pump gears compress the oil/air and ita actully fires like a diesel engine....results are a chipping away at the pump gears, deteriorating the pumps performance.

The solonoid valves on a Deere are inside the front part of the engine compartment, accessed throught he door under the operators copartment. Look up tight to the frame. Should be a bank of valves with wires comming out of them. You can test the valve function by switching the wires around until you isolate the faulty valve.

Take some old carpet for a pad, its tight working conditions and a pad to lay on helps.

RTFM (read the fkng manual) , and also the parts book if you have it, will show the schematics for the wiring to the valves.

Been there.

+1 Bushler :agree2:

Six years ago I was Cat 375 excavator with a six yard bucket loading haul trucks up on a stock pile. Something had come a part in it a week before and gotten metal in the hyd system. After the mechanic fixed it he drained and refilled the hyd and changed the filters. Well I dumped a bucket it the truck and the swing felt funny. The next bucket I am swinging to the left I start to dump the bucket and start swinging to the right. Well a piece of metal got stuck in the valve and it kept swinging left. I was just barely able to pull it up in time to go over the cab. I could not get it to stop swinging left. I looked like a idiot swinging completely around with a bucket of clay. Finally I dropped it to a idle and grounded the stick.

Anyways good luck getting it fixed. Too easy to get someone hurt when its not running right.

Another guy on the same job was running a 235 Cat and on the first bucket had a hose blow on the boom and it dropped into the back of a truck with a full bucke steel to steel. The drivers head hit the roof after it landed!

Billy

 

[Mike Van]

With the big temp. swings in the weather here, 12F one morning, then 40F the next day with a south wind, all the steel in my shop is wet - All the machines, whatever - Not sure if that kind of condensation forms inside a tank, but I suppose it could. After a few of those weather deals, I guess water could accumulate in anything.

 

[captainsteep]

With the big temp. swings in the weather here, 12F one morning, then 40F the next day with a south wind, all the steel in my shop is wet - All the machines, whatever - Not sure if that kind of condensation forms inside a tank, but I suppose it could. After a few of those weather deals, I guess water could accumulate in anything.

your right, and it will, thats why you always try to keep your fuel tanks full, the shop heated, ect. so what do you do to the things that you cant fill all the way up such as hydralic tanks.

 

[Backwoods]

Bushler got you on the right track.
Flush the whole system out good. Then get yourself a wide range hydraulic fluid that will handle the cold as well as the heat. Brand is your choice just as long as it is a wide spectrum fluid. Along with all new filters, this will give you a base from which trouble shooting is not just a crapshoot, as a lot of problems will lead back to oil and filters.

 

[Bushler]

Capt.Steep. I had a long discussion with D.J. yesterday evening about what you're doing. D.J. is my shovel mentor. His experience on shovel was 12 seasons logging S.E. Alaska when they first started using grapple shovels to log. He knows shovels.

Anyway. He confirmed my feelings that you are abusing the machine and putting yourself at risk using it for a yarder with the boom and jib at full extension. He told me when they fited a shovel with drums they kept the boom high, but the jib at about 50%. The reason is as I expected, the strain on the pin and bushings at full extension is compounded, and will tweak something for sure.

I think you mentioned that your machine was designed or altered to handle that? How?

Another thing we agreed on was safety. You're exceeding the design limits of the machine. Its a shovel not a yarder.

Sorry to be so negative. I wouldn't feel right not warning you.

 

[slowp]

Nope, it is a Yoader or a Yoder or however it is spelled. It is built with the intent of being a loader and a yarder. The guys here say no guylines should be needed, but I'm not sure whether they will actually get to test it or not.
The owner did mention that he was planning on putting a big log in front of the tracks.

I'm thinking Joe is being used as designed. Maybe oversafe if designed to work with no guylines.

 

[captainsteep]

Capt.Steep. I had a long discussion with D.J. yesterday evening about what you're doing. D.J. is my shovel mentor. His experience on shovel was 12 seasons logging S.E. Alaska when they first started using grapple shovels to log. He knows shovels.

Anyway. He confirmed my feelings that you are abusing the machine and putting yourself at risk using it for a yarder with the boom and jib at full extension. He told me when they fited a shovel with drums they kept the boom high, but the jib at about 50%. The reason is as I expected, the strain on the pin and bushings at full extension is compounded, and will tweak something for sure.

I think you mentioned that your machine was designed or altered to handle that? How?

Another thing we agreed on was safety. You're exceeding the design limits of the machine. Its a shovel not a yarder.

Sorry to be so negative. I wouldn't feel right not warning you.

Thanks for The Warning, dont feel bad about the negativity all input helps,as far as the stick at 50% tried that the winches dont spool up right, all piles up to one side, and joe is real tippy,JEWELL MANUFACTURING put the drums on and set him up for yarding, he has to be all the way up to have everything work right, and i found that out. Works sweet all the way up.Just need to get the rest of the bugs work out of him. The tags JEWELL put on the winches says that no guylines required we are doing it for safety and the cylinders are bleeding down.(hope that all the air and cloged filters fixes that) still i will keep the guylines for safety(wanna se my kids grow up) thanks for all input

 

[captainsteep]

Nope, it is a Yoader or a Yoder or however it is spelled. It is built with the intent of being a loader and a yarder. The guys here say no guylines should be needed, but I'm not sure whether they will actually get to test it or not.
The owner did mention that he was planning on putting a big log in front of the tracks.

I'm thinking Joe is being used as designed. Maybe oversafe if designed to work with no guylines.

Thanks slowp

 

[Bushler]

The reason the drums won't spool line correctly is because they are mounted off set on the machine instead of in lead on the boom.

Is Jewel willing to accept liability in case of injury or death resulting from using the modified Pierce logging front?

I've seen yarder towers come down. It isn't pretty.

 

[captainsteep]

The reason the drums won't spool line correctly is because they are mounted off set on the machine instead of in lead on the boom.

Is Jewel willing to accept liability in case of injury or death resulting from using the modified Pierce logging front?

I've seen yarder towers come down. It isn't pretty.

I would say NOT on the liability. the drums are mounted off set for the reason it takes the true distance from the heel to the drums to spool right, and it dose spool right all the way up, the min. you drop the stick it all piles up to one side and makes a mess, mike dunn the past owner said that it has to be all the way up also, he also said no guylines needed, but if you go out farther then 700' its not a bad idea to have them, we are out 800' so i am running them just for safety and not just one but two. we also are not pulling no where as big as trees as you guys work with, are stuff is pulp wood(pecker poles)maybe 12" on the stump with the bigger ones it a thinning job.

 

[myrtle]

I've been following this discussion of "Yoder" logging with interest...


I can only add what I know as a "professional logging watcher" and not as someone with actual hands on experience with this type of cable logging.

I have worked with 3 Yoders on my timber sales in this last season. One JD, one Cat, and one LinkBelt. All about the same size machine. Observations from their use in thinning/parital cut harvests of 40-65 year old DF (10-26" dbh, 100-160'):

1. All use the smallest carriage available, either a PeeWee or an Eaglet. Sometimes even a simple shotgun carriage if they can get away with it.

2. They always setup on a log under the front of the machine. They say it adds stability and it is important to get the center of gravity of the machine back to resist the pull of the skyline.

3. I have never seen any guylines used.

4. They are more likely to rig a support if there are spots with poor deflection compared to a yarder.

5. They less mechanical problems than the yarder sides. I guess that is to be expected as most machines are only a few years old.

6. They seem to have less control over the turns than a yarder. There is usually more rubbed trees along the corridor (thinnings, remember).

7. They prefer short yarding distances but I have seen a few out around 900'

8. They all seem get the wood out pretty fast. One guy runs just a Yoder for both logging and loading and gets two loads a day easy. Another is a Yoder and Shovel and they get 3 sometimes 4 loads a day. The last is a Yoder/Processer/Shovel combo and they average 4 and sometimes get 6 loads a day.

9. They work good on roadside landings where there isn't a lot of room. On every turn they drop the boom and swing to get the turn out of the chute and up on the road.


I have seen the Yoder in this picture log over 1.2 MMBF this year. I have never seen them break down - they lost one day of yarding to a plugged radiator. Once I was standing on the landing as they just started yarding over a sharp break in the corridor. The Yoder kept making loud "poping" noises and the boom kept settling down on them. I asked and was told that the hydraulic system in the boom cylinders has a blow-off pressure release and they were up against the max pressure. After struggling with a few turns, they moved the machine over a few feet and rigged up a support tree and everything went back to normal.

Overall it seems like a slick setup for thinning given how fast they can move around and set up.

 

[Bushler]

Myrtle, thanks for that. Is that a Cat 325? A couple more questions if you don't mind. Do you recall the number on the JD? And, lastly, are any of those machines up and working? I really like to see it in action. I'm 1 1/2 hours from Coos Bay, and fairly familiar with the area.

If this actually works like you're describing I might be all over a retro fit.

I can eat crow, tastes like chicken.

 

[captainsteep]

I've been following this discussion of "Yoder" logging with interest...


I can only add what I know as a "professional logging watcher" and not as someone with actual hands on experience with this type of cable logging.

I have worked with 3 Yoders on my timber sales in this last season. One JD, one Cat, and one LinkBelt. All about the same size machine. Observations from their use in thinning/parital cut harvests of 40-65 year old DF (10-26" dbh, 100-160'):

1. All use the smallest carriage available, either a PeeWee or an Eaglet. Sometimes even a simple shotgun carriage if they can get away with it.

2. They always setup on a log under the front of the machine. They say it adds stability and it is important to get the center of gravity of the machine back to resist the pull of the skyline.

3. I have never seen any guylines used.

4. They are more likely to rig a support if there are spots with poor deflection compared to a yarder.

5. They less mechanical problems than the yarder sides. I guess that is to be expected as most machines are only a few years old.

6. They seem to have less control over the turns than a yarder. There is usually more rubbed trees along the corridor (thinnings, remember).

7. They prefer short yarding distances but I have seen a few out around 900'

8. They all seem get the wood out pretty fast. One guy runs just a Yoder for both logging and loading and gets two loads a day easy. Another is a Yoder and Shovel and they get 3 sometimes 4 loads a day. The last is a Yoder/Processer/Shovel combo and they average 4 and sometimes get 6 loads a day.

9. They work good on roadside landings where there isn't a lot of room. On every turn they drop the boom and swing to get the turn out of the chute and up on the road.


I have seen the Yoder in this picture log over 1.2 MMBF this year. I have never seen them break down - they lost one day of yarding to a plugged radiator. Once I was standing on the landing as they just started yarding over a sharp break in the corridor. The Yoder kept making loud "poping" noises and the boom kept settling down on them. I asked and was told that the hydraulic system in the boom cylinders has a blow-off pressure release and they were up against the max pressure. After struggling with a few turns, they moved the machine over a few feet and rigged up a support tree and everything went back to normal.

Overall it seems like a slick setup for thinning given how fast they can move around and set up.

thanks myrtle its a shame that you guys areso far away or i would be there to see the action, i am the only one in this area to do this, i will get it figured out. thanks again.

 

[slowp]

Myrtle: By support tree, are you meaning hanging up in a tail tree or rigging an intermediate support?

 

[Bushler]

Myrtle, what is the biggest turn those machines can handle rigged like that?

I can understand putting a brow log just behind the idlers, I do that when throwing logs on a grade.

For comparison. On average day I can fell and buck three loads, grapple log it out to say 5/6 throws, bump the knots and deck it.

On previously cut timber where all I have to do is log it and bump the knots, I can get 6 loads/day pretty easily.

That puts my loads/man rate at 2/3 (on average).

Where I really fall down is on the deep holes and long corners where it might take me a couple hours pulling stumps and digging a track berm to log out two or three turns. Thats where I'd like to be able to use a drum set up.

The set up I was looking at mounted the drums, (smaller cap.) on the boom, one on each side. I might have a pic of it. Will look.

Regardless, I have logged with just about every kind of set up imaginalble and have never seen anything that compares to the cost effectiveness, minimum crew, and easy, than a grapple shovel.

 

[myrtle]

Myrtle, thanks for that. Is that a Cat 325? A couple more questions if you don't mind. Do you recall the number on the JD? And, lastly, are any of those machines up and working? I really like to see it in action. I'm 1 1/2 hours from Coos Bay, and fairly familiar with the area.

If this actually works like you're describing I might be all over a retro fit.

I can eat crow, tastes like chicken.

It is a 325. I can't remember the number of the JD.

Sadly no one is working in my area on BLM land. All the logging seemed to dry up in November when the mills started slowing down. I went from 8 sides to nothing. They should start up again in the spring if prices come around by then.

I'll remember to take my camera out of my lunch box and get some better pictures of the setups when things get going again.

 

[myrtle]

Myrtle: By support tree, are you meaning hanging up in a tail tree or rigging an intermediate support?

Intermediate support. They usually rig a tail tree unless they have a close draw to hang across. Our commercial thinning units tend to get pretty broken up with buffers and reserve areas so the yarding distances are fairly short on average. I think its quicker for them to run up a tree on the unit boundary than try to run the skyline far enough through the un-thinned stand to get enough lift.