SOP for workers entering a drop zone

[SRT-Tech]

i hate to sound mean, but i really have no sympathy for pedestrians who CHOOSE to ignore the caution tape or my voice commands to not enter. If they are STUPID enough to walk under a tree after the warnings, and get hit and killed, sorry, they deserve it.

 

[JayD]

we secure the drop zone,we prefer to have the work site to ourselves,if we can't we instruct the workers on site do not pass our bunting tape,have clear signs stating do not enter,once our climber has tied off the limb we are going to lower,we scan the drop zone for intruders,our signal to go ahead is thumbs up from all groundies to the man on the lowering who then gives thumbs up to the climber to cut the limb,all eyes stays on the limb being lowered,generally depending on how many groundies there are we have one who will literally physically grab anyone who tries to enter our drop zone,this works for us...we need to use our peripheral vision to keep a eye on things as-well,...just like when you are driving down the you can see the road and still observe whats happening as you go,so for us it's thumbs up and visual checks.

 

[trimwizard]

You sound crazy mean. Maybe more crazy than mean, but that's another thread.
If you're cutting small limbs off a 100 foot tree, your crew is 150 feet away between cuts?

I do utility line clearance and usually keep several trees ahead of the ground crew. I will have one person ,whom I trust the most, work closer than that.
The problem I run into is the turnover in our company. With so many new guys coming in on a regular basis I have a tendency toward extreme safety training. It takes most guys awhile before safe habits get ingrained into their workday, and I do what I can to see that they go home in one piece. Some don't ever seem to get it and I'd rather they just weren't around the job.
I rarely run into jobs where I have to be more than 60' up and I may have misspoken: 1 1/2 X my height where cutting.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I call BS here Whiz, if I can call you that. And try not to take my comments personally, I don't know anything about you other than my interpretations of your comments.
First, how's sending a guy to another crew going to teach him his job, from the sounds of it, being sent to a different crew might be giving the guy a break. When I see a crew working at peak efficiency, I think the crew leader is responsible for excellent training and leadership skills. The inverse holds true for crewmembers that aren't doing so well.
When you rule your crew with an iron fist, you end up with high turn over. The exceptional employees leave, because they want to move to a better work environment; because they are good, they can.
Second, how can you establish such a huge work zone doing line clearance? Aren't your lines close to busy roads? Line crews aren't often stopping traffic around here.
Then, most of the line clearance work is on three or four year cycles. You're mostly cutting some pretty small stuff. Why such a huge drop zone?
Typically, a crew parks the chipper as close to the tree as practical (safe)and the crew stands near the chipper during cutting. It's at a safe distance and that's where groundmen physically end up after dragging a branch.

 

[beowulf343]

Second, how can you establish such a huge work zone doing line clearance? Aren't your lines close to busy roads? Line crews aren't often stopping traffic around here.
Then, most of the line clearance work is on three or four year cycles. You're mostly cutting some pretty small stuff. Why such a huge drop zone?
Typically, a crew parks the chipper as close to the tree as practical (safe)and the crew stands near the chipper during cutting. It's at a safe distance and that's where groundmen physically end up after dragging a branch.

If I can jump in here? In some parts of the country there is little or no shoulder. Here in NY it is no problem pulling off the shoulder and trimming without getting in the way of traffic. But I did some trimming in Baltimore for a while and there is no shoulder-you have to close off a lane and stop traffic.

Worked line clearance in Rochester for several years-those trees hadn't been touched for 20+ years-huge drop zones. Also up there, probably better than half the lines were in backyards and had to be climbed. We would be a couple yards ahead of our groundies because they had long drags on everything. Standing by the chipper would put you too far out of the work zone.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

But I did some trimming in Baltimore for a while and there is no shoulder-you have to close off a lane and stop traffic.

But did you close lanes because they were in that huge 1.5 times work zone, or to accommodate your truck?

We were recently at a meeting discussing the new ASNI standards. There was some conversation about workers in the drop zone, but nothing about pedestrians, people in cars, or people in homes. I guess they don't matter.

 

[trimwizard]

Mr. Maas

Sending someone home for the day or to another crew is not my policy, its my bosses, and I agree with you on your crew leading comments. I am not as hard on guys as I may come across. I generally try to keep everyones spirits up and get them to looking towards working as a team as much as possible so we all have an enjoyable,productive and safe day.
The lines I have been working on are on a ten year cycle I am told, by utilities forresters and my bosses.
As you pointed out (better then I did) circumstances change with each job.
I obviously cannot make a fence or house move out of what I prefer to have as a safe drop zone either. Hence rigging. As often as not we have signs, cones, flagmen, and lanes blocked.
Mostly we have a designated manual truck with a chipper cleaning up after the trimming crews. The groundsmen I was referring to in my post are normally cutting up and staging brush for the chippers, unless we are roping out leads, etc. where they usually are closer to me.
Thanks for calling me on my lack of being able to communicate clearly (really), it,s something I've tried to work on for years, and guess I still have a way to go. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[beowulf343]

But did you close lanes because they were in that huge 1.5 times work zone, or to accommodate your truck?

Sorry mike, I see what you are getting at now. The lanes were closed to accommodate the trucks.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

We were recently at a meeting discussing the new ASNI standards. There was some conversation about workers in the drop zone, but nothing about pedestrians, people in cars, or people in homes. I guess they don't matter.

It came up in the one Tim and Lance gave. Having an extra person when working over Public ROW. Don Blair sat in on it an brought up that when blocking a sidewalk you force people to walk in the street. I brought up that in some comunities you cannot leagaly close any P-ROW w/o a permit.

You should have someone designated to watch any P-ROW while working over it.

One thing that Blair brought up in his talk was that The Care Of Trees has a policy that anyone can stop all work by yelling "TAKE THREE" It's an emergancy stop comand that no one has to think about.

 

[ropensaddle]

works for me

My ground men have been told to stay were I can see them
I cut several limbs when I have started a pile and before it gets
too thick I stop saw and tell ok. I started the practice because
it seems they find ways to get where they shouldn't.

Their only job until saw stops is pedestrian control even though
cones barricades are out it seems dropzones are magnets for
groundies and public. This does effect production some but I can
live with slower if someone stays safe!!!!

Besides my shock collars ran out of batteries too soon to be
effective training tools!?%%

:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[treevet]

this is an interesting thread to wander thru on a sunday morning. we ve been burried in an ice storm overload for a couple three weeks now. under most situations when you attempt entry to the tree you are already in a drop zone. during the morning after while clearing driveways (by myself intentionally) it was like being in a combat zone w honkers raining down all around me while working. tried to keep cuts to a minimum to hear the snapping and judicially get in and out. people had to go to work and there was $ to be made (partial performance is evidence of a contract). anyhoo i m sure most feel this subject is beat to death but just wanted to point out how the drop zone is a constantly changing commodity. i like tree machine s desire to work alone most of the time. i have run my bus 95 % of its life w just one groundy and me. you don t have to pay the hi dollar employee and it is so much easier to control the ground. we (the current 3 yeared installment) are a well oiled machine. it may sound primitive but i can make a short concise squeel that can be heardover a new era chipper. then hand signals follow or voice if hearing permits. it is literally amazing how far a meaty say 20 inch by 20 inch chunk of wood can move laterally if you just miss your hole and it deflects off one limb then a series of 5 or 6 more it could concievably go 100 feet sideways on these springboards from a say 80 ft drop. this is time to have a moment w the groundman andpause for reflection on what could have happened if he ignored your saw revving or scream or eye contact bcs he was far enough away and wanted to get his work done and go home early (they can be so stubborn). also wanted to point out the worst offenders i ve encountered in dropzone violators was while working on princeton university campus who would go way out of their way (when you did not even need a groundy nearby the traffic was so low) to go right under the tree and ask "whatcha you doin up there". hardly stupid people but just dense. maybe the thought of a tree, so soft and pretty just couldn t appear dangerous to them.

 

[jomoco]

This is a topic of great importance that I have argued about for years with company owners, crew foreman and individual workers.

I tend to agree with Mike Maas that every treeworker is responsible for his own safety, and should not be allowed on the job until schooled in proper DZ entrance technique. Rule number 1 is to never enter a DZ without looking up constantly to ascertain that nothing is coming down, be it a hanger, dropped saw or anything period. Target what you are going into the DZ for first, but keep your attention on looking up until you have that target out of the DZ.

A properly trained veteran groundman will become so adept at this technique that a climber couldn't hit him with something even if he tried. It is when a company hammers this vital survival technique into every employee that it achieves an acceptable degree of safety within the company. Why this technique is not SOP for every company is a mystery to me.

Teamwork between the climber and ground crew can work wonders for production levels. I do not believe in burying a ground crew in brush logs etc.
By allowing your groundies a chance to clear brush and logs out of the DZ on a regular basis with their heads up and eyes on you, by the time you make your last cut very little is left to do before moving on to the next job.

There will always be situations where special attention and proceedures are required to achieve a safe work zone, and whether it's radio's, signal relay men, barriers etc. It is the foremans responsibility to go over these proceedures beforehand with the crew, and make sure that they are understood and followed.

Everytime I see a groundman enter a DZ with his head down, I stop what I'm doing and warn him or her about not following SOP, I'll allow two such infractions of SOP before firing them, which I consider generous.

Not everyone is cut out for this business as either a climber or a groundmen, and firing them before someone gets hurt or killed is the responsible thing to do IMO.

Work Safe!

jomoco

 

[treevet]

Just want to again point out the transitional nature of a drop area. Mentioned deflections and might add that sometimes the tip of a branch will hang on by the tip to another branch and swing like a pro on a high wire act flying well out of the recognized area. This can only be forecasted by the climber. The area is changing constantly from different levels of danger and different diameters suchas when the road lane is yours to when say school lets out and it is no longer yours. I agree the bullheaded head down employee is fired in short order but to keep your eyes on the canopy constantly while in and out and carrying an object will lead to injury imo. I think it is difficult for ansi to legislate sop in this area that is black and white and never grey. If the climber stops completely when the groundman is under him no saw will fall. If there is a hanger the gm shouldn t be underat all unless it is so stuck a rope from below wouldn t pull it out. Splatter is an on and off consideration too depending on real dead drops or roped stuff coliding w the trunk. I think the climber is responsible for every move that gm(and people and cars he directs] makes as though he was a puppet and the climber had the string controller.