SOP for workers entering a drop zone

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I somehow do not think your reasoning would hold up in a court of law. Its all about due diligence, and if the individual did not do everything in their power to indicate something was about to come crashing down, including a vocal or other audible warning(other than a saw), the repercussions could be considerable, and in favour of the person that was hit. I can see it now, "Judge I did not bother to shout, whistle whatever because Billy Bob would not hear me anyways" The climber is also most certainly responsible for the safety of his fellow workers just as the ground workers are for that of the climber, not exclusively so, but all on the hook none the less.

If I were to do everything in my power, I would erect a steel fence with razor wire on top, around the tree, come down before each cut and tap each groundman within the fence, on the shoulder, and have him sign a waiver, in front of a witness, indicating he knew I was about to cut a limb, and then go up back up...
Again, voice commands are useless, given they come from 60 feet in the air, with a chipper roaring, a pony motor racing, a chainsaw or two reving, and all ground crew wearing approved hearing protection.
What are you suggesting a court would say?
I'd be much more concerned about what the court would say about a crew dependent AT ALL on voice commands in the given circumstances!

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Unless a pedestrian walks under you as you are looking up making a cut.

 

[Tree Machine]

This really gets at the heart of why I work without help 95% of the time.
Less money, maybe, but it takes the risk of someone else getting hurt right out of the equation. That is, by far, my biggest fear, much more than myself getting hurt with no groundman.

Communication, they say, is the most important thing, but amidst this? "voice commands.... they come from 60 feet in the air, with a chipper roaring, a pony motor racing, a chainsaw or two reving, and all ground crew wearing approved hearing protection."
This is the environment we work in. Men get tired, complacent, careless even. It's hard, when you're way up in a tree, to offer valuable and needed information when you're yelling. The yell will come above the actual intent of the words and the ground guy may form the impression that you're yelling at him, even though you're not, but even though you are. This is not good for the morale at either end.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I'd be much more concerned about what the court would say about a crew dependent AT ALL on voice commands in the given circumstances!

That is not the point, command and response is a part of the communications process. Not the soil means. If there is a lot of noise on the worksite, how will the worked discern your saw rev from all the other.

If it is noisy, I will use hand signals to get attention, then use the voice command.

Yes, there is a responcibility for the worker to look out for his safety, but there is a requirement for the climber to take all resonable precautions for those below. It is a team effort after all (I know you're not a prima dona Mike, but you sound like one here).

What the governing body will look for is weather the resposible persons took all required and resonable measures to ensure the safety of the individual. If it comes to a court of law, they amy very well look at ANSI and ask if voce commands were given.

 

[coydog]

About a year ago I was pruning a large douglas fir in a public park, There were caution tape, cones, brush etc. and a couple of folks on the ground, and not many pedestrians in the area. I couldn't see the ground and the crew couldn't see me. Some 80+ yr old lady walks over the caution tape, through the cones , past the brush around a ground guy and right under the tree just as I yell " CLEAR?" "NO NO NO!" was the response I got which convinced me not to drop the large 6" diameter stub I held in my hand. Once they secured the drop zone and gave me the all clear they told me the stub came down right where she had been standing. If you have a specific set of voice commands as part of a command and response system(hence S.O.P.) and adhere to them when visual/hand signals are not possible then nobody is yelling a bunch of nonsense back and forth from 60 feet up. I agree, that is unprofessional. But in some circumstances nothing takes the place of agood set of lungs and voice projection, an important skill IMO, and if visual contact is lost with the ground, then perhaps the chipper should be brought down to idle and the voice commands take over until visual contact is once again established.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Below and clear are the only words you need. After you hear "clear' let it rip, say "below" and don't let anything go again untill you hear "clear".

The idea behind the two part command is that the first part is the preperatory command, and the second action command.

The first part gets the attention and prepares the crew, giveng the chance to react.

If I am going to make severl freefall cuts, I will get the Responce then amend to the effct that the DZ is secured till I open it up agian.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I still don't know how a voice command is heard over a chipper. You'll have to show me that trick.
You are telling me that if I have a secure DZ, and two groundmen, I make eye contact, hand signal my intent to drop a limb, and they both make eye contact, nod and stand back, I then also have to then yell and hear a response?
That's ludicrous.
And further, if I then look up and begin my cut, and my groundman ignores the danger and walks under me getting hurt, it's my fault?
Let me think about that...umm... NO!
BTW, the DZ opens back up when I hang my saw.

 

[Tree Machine]

....and say 'Clear!"


or was that "Below!"?


as you were?



You can go back to work now.






Why are you looking at me funny?

 

[rbtree]

About a year ago I was pruning a large douglas fir in a public park, There were caution tape, cones, brush etc. and a couple of folks on the ground, and not many pedestrians in the area. I couldn't see the ground and the crew couldn't see me. Some 80+ yr old lady walks over the caution tape, through the cones , past the brush around a ground guy and right under the tree just as I yell " CLEAR?" "NO NO NO!" was the response I got which convinced me not to drop the large 6" diameter stub I held in my hand. Once they secured the drop zone and gave me the all clear they told me the stub came down right where she had been standing. If you have a specific set of voice commands as part of a command and response system(hence S.O.P.) and adhere to them when visual/hand signals are not possible then nobody is yelling a bunch of nonsense back and forth from 60 feet up. I agree, that is unprofessional. But in some circumstances nothing takes the place of agood set of lungs and voice projection, an important skill IMO, and if visual contact is lost with the ground, then perhaps the chipper should be brought down to idle and the voice commands take over until visual contact is once again established.

Did you hear about the fatality that an Everett company incurred last year? Similar scenario. A woman from next door ventured into the kill zone, which may or may not have been secured properly. She'd been warned to stay clear earlier.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

You are telling me that if I have a secure DZ, and two groundmen, I make eye contact, hand signal my intent to drop a limb, and they both make eye contact, nod and stand back, I then also have to then yell and hear a response?

Actually you have a visul command and responce here, on such a small crew it does work, if they are securing the DZ.

And further, if I then look up and begin my cut, and my groundman ignores the danger and walks under me getting hurt, it's my fault?

My original intent of the post was to bring up a the idea that it should be part of SOP for the ground to inform the climber that some one is entering his immidiate work area. I.e. get his attention before entering. Then he can allow entrance or tell them to wait.

Several years ago, on a local storm job, I made eye contact, sounded off, got as reply. But the person replying did not secure the DZ and one of the garden girls pressed into brush dragging waled right under the long section of silver maple that I had already cut and released. Luckilly the friction fo sliding trhough the canopy gave her time to
get to the other side of the tree unaware of the danger.

Too much chipper/saw noise and no set SOP for ground team to watch out for themselves and each other.

BTW, the DZ opens back up when I hang my saw.

So the crew must assume that you are done, and will not be breaking off a snapcut chunk? That would be a perfect time to add the stand clear, since they would expect it to be safe on your worksite.

 

[coydog]

Did you hear about the fatality that an Everett company incurred last year? Similar scenario. A woman from next door ventured into the kill zone, which may or may not have been secured properly. She'd been warned to stay clear earlier.

I did hear about that roger, tragic indeed, but I don't know the particulars of how she managed to sneak past the ground crew, obviously the climber couldn't see her. I'll ask those who feel that voice commands are useless what happens when you lose visual contact with the ground crew, and for those who work alone, how do you secure your dropzone?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

If you lose visual contact, you need to shut down other equipment and make voice contact with a groundman, or have a man stand in site and babysit you.
Just the same, as with you guys using mainly voice commands, the protocol needs to be adjusted when the site is just too loud.

 

[Big A]

As a groundie for the past 10years or so, working with various different crews, and styles, I like the climber to be aware of where everyone is on the ground. I have found that continuous shouting tends to be ignored after the first half doz times. Not because groundcrew dont care for their safety, more so that it desensitizes you to have a climber to shout "Below" every 5 seconds. A combination of precise hand-signals, eye-contact, and sensible audible warnings have always worked for me. even when going under the tree, keep your eyes open for that dead piece that the climber has inadvertedly kick off as he is moving around to his next position. Dare I say, common sense on all parties makes for a far safer work place.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Not because groundcrew dont care for their safety, more so that it desensitizes you to have a climber to shout "Below" every 5 seconds.

I've worked with people who go to those extreams, but it's not where I'm going.

I do agree the climber needs to be aware of what is going on, but the ground worker needs to ensure that he is aware too.

 

[trimwizard]

How I and my groundmen will communicate while I am in a tree is part of every pre job survey we hold. SOP for me: voice Underneath, and clear, from groundsmen and headache from me when using hand saw or pulling hangers.
If my chainsaw is running no one within drop zone (1 1/2 length of tree) until I say clear and saw is off.
Any one who breaks the communication rules of any job is sent home for the day and can work on another crew afterwards.
I have had "civilians" run bicycles through caution tape and throw their hands in the air like it was a finish line, walk under a tree I was running my saw in and yell up at me to ask a question,groundsmen sneak around the trunk to try and grab a brach before I dropped the next one, etc. These are situations where I ask for the groundsman in charge to be fired. Unfortunately I only have the ability to wright them up in my position. :bang:

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

You sound crazy mean. Maybe more crazy than mean, but that's another thread.
If you're cutting small limbs off a 100 foot tree, your crew is 150 feet away between cuts?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

What the governing body will look for is weather the resposible persons took all required and resonable measures to ensure the safety of the individual. If it comes to a court of law, they amy very well look at ANSI and ask if voce commands were given.

ANSI allows for hand signals instead of voice commands.

 

[DonnyO]

You sound crazy mean. Maybe more crazy than mean, but that's another thread.
If you're cutting small limbs off a 100 foot tree, your crew is 150 feet away between cuts?

Now THAT is funny

 

[Tree Machine]

ANSI 2006, pg 16, section 6, 6.1.3:

Communications shall be established among arborists working aloft, either in a tree or from an aerial device, and arborists and other workers on the ground, before starting or using any portable or power hand tools. The command "stand clear" from aloft and response "all clear" from the ground are terms that may be used for this purpose. Pre-arranged, 2-way hand signals may also be used. Arborists and other workers returning to the work area shall be acknowledged by arborists aloft.




That's what the guideline says. The voice commands they give are examples of what to be used. the most important thing here it that you all are clear on what the procedure is before you go up into the tree.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Anything in that there ANSI book about clearing pedestrians a certain distance from a tree felling?