MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
But, as I posted that, I remember him going off on Nick... with some company to boot.
The two of them outta start a bizzzz....
The two of them outta start a bizzzz....
spikes
- Thread starter JonnyHart
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I agree with Nick. there are times when spiking is a viable option. I've lowered my hooks out of many thick barked Doug-firs after reaching the lowest limbs. It's much easier to ascend a fat tree SRT than on hooks, but sometimes.... Another problem is fatty trees with skinny little dead limbs thicker than the hair on a dogs back, grand firs often fit that bill. And I don't feel bad about spiking firewood in training.
There are oodles of fat Doug-firs around here that have been spiked numerous times over the last 30 years, many topped too. Not the end of the world.
Spiking should be avoided, and mostly can be. But there are exceptions to every rule.
There are oodles of fat Doug-firs around here that have been spiked numerous times over the last 30 years, many topped too. Not the end of the world.
Spiking should be avoided, and mostly can be. But there are exceptions to every rule.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
can yopu guarentee you are not exposing the pholgen to disease? It is better then breaking the cambium and damamging the xylem, but canker can make it just as bad.
I would say, only if the removal is scheduled in the near future
Spiking a trim should be the last resort to any other form of entry. Anything less will validate the hacks argument that it's not all that bad.
I only do it when I can't set a line over a good branch. It's a safety thing. Hopefully it will be overcome someday. It's like the palm tree thing except you're saying spikes will hurt D-fir bark. I have a very limited understanding of tree diseases, but am actively working on it.
When I did line clearance the only time I trimmed in spikes(Besides big firs) was in farmers fields on trees of little value(hawthornes and native ash next to the lines). If the trees were to die(which I doubt) they would be used for firewood, and wouldn't be in the lines anymore
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When I did line clearance the only time I trimmed in spikes(Besides big firs) was in farmers fields on trees of little value(hawthornes and native ash next to the lines). If the trees were to die(which I doubt) they would be used for firewood, and wouldn't be in the lines anymore
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John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
I'm not saying it will, but that it may stress the tree. The people who try to justify it are saying that the bark is thick enough on an assumption. I want some sort of proof other then ancidotal evidance.
In Nick's rhetoric he alternates between sciecnce and anicdotal statements. "Shigo says" then "John Hendricksons brother says".
When I did line clearance the only time I trimmed in spikes(Besides big firs) was in farmers fields on trees of little value(hawthornes and native ash next to the lines). If the trees were to die(which I doubt) they would be used for firewood, and wouldn't be in the lines anymore
One of the reasons there is dispensation in ANSI for rural line work, but IMO one fo the reasons ROW's are initial inroads of certain diseases.
xtremetrees
Addicted to ArboristSite
Originally posted by Stumper
Xtreme, I CANNOT work FOR tree ordinances. I believe deeply in individual freedom. Tree ordinances-no matter how well intentioned or well formulated are inherently at odds with freedom (Okay-I have no gripe with an ordinance against defacing public trees but anything intended to mandate what happens on private property is repugnant).
nice post stumpie,
perhaps your right
Nickrosis
Manned by Boderators
Where's the alternation? The points where meant to build on each other. And you're misquoting me about his brother.
My point from Shigo is that the cambium is on the inside. My point from JH about his brother was that it's practiced where the bark is incredibly thick and the other ascension techniques are ruled out. So, if the bark is incredibly thick, the cambium is inside of it, or if other methods are ruled out, there are a couple of instances where spiking is the best thing.
Some proof
*Bark thickness increases as a function of stem diameter:
http://sres.anu.edu.au/associated/mensuration/gr/barkthic.gif
http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cach...ihrmp/oak29.htm+bark+thickness&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
*US Forest Service research:
http://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/rn/rn_so210.pdf
My point is that some trees may have bark that is thick enough. I keep thinking of northwestern trees that grow to enormous diameters and wouldn't have a single bit of living parenchyma disturbed by a spike that digs in half an inch to the inside.
And finally, if you need the spikes to climb the tree, to remove a hazard without removing the tree, whatever. Then I see the value of it. I'm not thinking of a fine pruning job in a front yard. I'm thinking of this winter when I had no choice but to spike a tree that I was not removing. It had the top of its only neighbor lodged in a crotch. Spiked up to that crotch, got above it, roped in and cut out the other top. Then I dropped back down on the line.
Point is, the tree was in far better shape in the end; I had inflicted some wounds, but I saved it in the long run. That's the only time I've spiked when pruning. That's an acceptable scenario in my mind.
Kneejerk Bombas
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JPS has a good handle on wounding, I agree whole heartedly. If you look at the way bark cambium is oriented it often comes very close to the surface of even the thickest bark, particularly in the furrows where a climber is likely to place his spike.
NeTree
Addicted to ArboristSite
All this talk about spiking reminds me of someone we all know and love...
"Spikes do not hurt your tree if you have the right kind and someone who knows how to use them. Whoever invented bucket trucks probably started the rumor that spikes hurt your trees so they could eliminate the little man because they (the tree services that bought the trucks) had to make a killing (alot of money) in order to pay for the equipment. There is a big difference in tree spikes and pole spikes. those who use pole spikes usually scar the heck out of the trees, I'll be honest I have yet to see a tree die from being spiked the tree usually takes care of itself.
The companies that say don't spike also say don't top a tree. Well why do they cut limbs off trees? That would have the same effect on a tree as topping and honestly they still top trees they just call it pruning/crown reduction and take a little off the top. Then it grows back quickly and has to be topped uh I mean (pruned) sooner (wink wink). "
"Spikes do not hurt your tree if you have the right kind and someone who knows how to use them. Whoever invented bucket trucks probably started the rumor that spikes hurt your trees so they could eliminate the little man because they (the tree services that bought the trucks) had to make a killing (alot of money) in order to pay for the equipment. There is a big difference in tree spikes and pole spikes. those who use pole spikes usually scar the heck out of the trees, I'll be honest I have yet to see a tree die from being spiked the tree usually takes care of itself.
The companies that say don't spike also say don't top a tree. Well why do they cut limbs off trees? That would have the same effect on a tree as topping and honestly they still top trees they just call it pruning/crown reduction and take a little off the top. Then it grows back quickly and has to be topped uh I mean (pruned) sooner (wink wink). "
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
THAT guy was a idjet!
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
When I first saw the title of this thread, I assumed it was about buying spikes so I ignored it...Hah!
Nick was right about the phellogen, aka cork cambium, aka bark cambium. Trouble is, trees are VERY different in where these cells are. Dr. Bill Chaney from purdue has been presenting on bark at different ISA mtgs, midatlantic, minnesota etc. the past year--great info, ya shoulda seen it by now!
Very few species have thick enough layers of cork cells to hold up spikes without damaging phellogen. Some trees have continuous phellogen, which would be worse for disease transmission. Some have discontinuous splotches of phellogen. Some have none at all! So those who bash Nick on the little-knowledge-is-a-dangerous-thing basis may have some grounds, but no reason to be rude. What he quoted was not false, just incomplete.
Our loblolly pines in NC have very thick bark, but to get spikes in securely you have to jam them deep. We also have beetles that love to have the hard work done for them by spikes. they enter those wounds and have a short route to the vascular cambium.
Practically, I climb most trees with monkeyfist and polesaw, but the bigshot is used when needed. I've gone back to oaks I've spiked short sections of, and I do not like what I see in some of those wounds. There'll be another day when I have to spike a prune, but I'll do all i can to avoid it.
Nick's right about certain rare cases. "never" and "incorrect" are dogmatic words that do not fit all the diverse challenges trees pose for us. As useful as this forum may be, only jps and nick consistently based their posts on science. It's best to crack open a book now and then if you want to understand something. "Bark" by Prance and Prance would be a start.
Nick was right about the phellogen, aka cork cambium, aka bark cambium. Trouble is, trees are VERY different in where these cells are. Dr. Bill Chaney from purdue has been presenting on bark at different ISA mtgs, midatlantic, minnesota etc. the past year--great info, ya shoulda seen it by now!
Very few species have thick enough layers of cork cells to hold up spikes without damaging phellogen. Some trees have continuous phellogen, which would be worse for disease transmission. Some have discontinuous splotches of phellogen. Some have none at all! So those who bash Nick on the little-knowledge-is-a-dangerous-thing basis may have some grounds, but no reason to be rude. What he quoted was not false, just incomplete.
Our loblolly pines in NC have very thick bark, but to get spikes in securely you have to jam them deep. We also have beetles that love to have the hard work done for them by spikes. they enter those wounds and have a short route to the vascular cambium.
Practically, I climb most trees with monkeyfist and polesaw, but the bigshot is used when needed. I've gone back to oaks I've spiked short sections of, and I do not like what I see in some of those wounds. There'll be another day when I have to spike a prune, but I'll do all i can to avoid it.
Nick's right about certain rare cases. "never" and "incorrect" are dogmatic words that do not fit all the diverse challenges trees pose for us. As useful as this forum may be, only jps and nick consistently based their posts on science. It's best to crack open a book now and then if you want to understand something. "Bark" by Prance and Prance would be a start.
Stumper
One Man Band
Okay Guy-but I can't help but wonder if all Prance and Prance do is dance around the subject!
Abbershay
ArboristSite Operative
You know the the truth is, if trimming you should never even climb a tree if you are conserned , you will be stressing bark and branches also you will likely cut more than needed . Use a lift . Lifts are made small enough now that you can even get them in the back yard via the gate . This along with pole pruners a good tree trimmer doesnt even have to touch the tree in most cases.
rumination
ArboristSite Guru
Here we go again.
Abbershay
ArboristSite Operative
with todays tools climbing isnt as important as it once was, sure many may not have the money to buy the equipment that is available but if they really are(truely) as conserned for the trees as they claim to be them there is no reason they should have to climb.
Abbershay
ArboristSite Operative
i didnt say truck there are many lifts and other methods other than trucks.
also i said most cases not all.
also i said most cases not all.
Nathan Wreyford
ArboristSite Operative
The courtyard at the tax office today was only accessable through the building.
