Splicing eyes - from the Knot Question thread

[geofore]

Test

3:1 or 4:1 block set up tied to one tree at base spliced rope tied to another tree at base and pull on block set up with truck. The rope you spliced should break before the splice breaks. Since you are testing to distruction pick any of the six you made for the test. What is the breaking strength of the rope that broke? If your splice broke try another one. If two of your splices broke before the rope, you need more help with your splices. Make sure your block set up is rated past the breaking point of the ropes you splice, and make sure no one is standing inside the danger zone as this set up will fly when the rope fails.

 

[NickfromWI]

Splice Crossover

From: Araya, Nickolas
To: Araya, Nickolas
Cc:

Subject:
Sent: 2/17/03 4:04 PM
Importance: Normal
Okay, here's a question-
When I make a split tail section for someone, say 5 feet long and an eye on one end, Yale XTC, I just use the cover strands as the core strands...I remove all the original core strands. I think this is the way most splicers are doing it, though I have heard of people leaving in those original core strands, doing the crossover as usual, and then cutting it off at the length they desire.

Regardless, we know it's accepted to remove all the core strands and replace ALL of them with the cover strands you bury with.

Now, say we're making a flip line....9 feet long, an eye on each end. Could you not do the same thing....get rid of all those core stands, then have the two buries taper into eachother? For a long flip line, 20' (for example) this would cost you 40' of rope, but on a shorty, it might make sense.

My concern is those shorter lengths of core strands floating around inside the rope. Can those become a problem?

Check out the picture and this question might make more sense.

love
nick

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/bigone83079/vwp?.dir=/splicing+stuff&.dnm=cross.10.jpg&.src=ph&.view=t&.hires=t

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Geo-

Would not the line break jsut before the splice, just before the disturbance of the natural flow of the line (unless splice is really bad). Kinda like right before it flairs, the internal tensions would back up from the interuption in even flow and shape at the flair of the splice and cause failure before it? i have always visualized it like under succh and such a load a tightened nylon fibre stretched beyond elassticity would be approaaching the charachtersitics of fragility to such change like glass fibres? Strong but has delicacies? Not sure just trying to figure what is going on. i could see where a 10'splice that you had enough length to just test the splice coming out stronger along the length of the splice. But i have always witnessed and understood the weak link/ achilles tendon of the splice would be just like any other knot, if some other imperfection/bend in the line didn't become the weaker link.

Some line choices for splicing (BlueStreak, SafetyBlues a Sherrill splicer pointed out to me some years ago) have fibre shapes/softness that lay down better in a splice, to maintain manufactured shape/strength in splicing better. This wouldd give better strength, and if the more compact design provides more contact area betwixt fibres, that would make it more secure at the same time.

i think splices are stronger more secure after being set in moderate use, rather than when new. i think whipping in 12/16 strand (stuffed tube splice rather than woven); is especially important to bridge to the more set/stronger splice after use and eliminate any creep in surfaces until, the constricted/drawn tight stage of moderate use is met.

Mike i use that same method for climbing up above favorable wood. If it is light stuff, i will also choke a karab every 8' or so, limiting fall to the last good hold as both lines are run thru it, truly imitating mountaineering strategies, with mountaineering gear, on that day's mountain! Also, another karab/sling or other positive mechanical stop to keep lifeline from riding up above good wood as you climb, or in case of impact from a fall incident i think is very important.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Nick Love,
Wouldn't it be a lot of work to bury 4 or more feet? Other than the extra work, it seems that they would both be equal in strength. Doing a full length bury would make the lanyard stiffer, I guess.

 

[treeclimber165]

Mike- It isn't an additional 4 feet. A standard arborist splice is buried 28", so therefore it is about half way on a 5' split tail.
Also, arbo rope gets it's strength in the outer strands. The core doesn't bear weight, it only keeps the rope round. Nick's method would be somewhat stronger. (The exception is the new Fly rope which gets it's strength in the inner core strands. The outer cover mostly protects the load bearing strands. That is why it uses a different splice.)

Of course none of this really makes much sense to me. Why bother with a split tail if you aren't going to use one of the advanced hitches? When I finally switched to a split tail, I used it for about 48 hours before moving on to an avanced hitch. If I was going to spend all that money to 'advance', then I had to keep going until I found a true advantage. In my opinion, using a split tail with a Blake's is a waste.
{Stepping off my soap box now}

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Brian,
He was refering to a 9' lomg lanyard with an eye on each end. So 9' minus 56"(two eyes)=4' of extra bury.

 

[Ryan Willock]

Brain what hitch are you using then??? I think you said that you were using a distal? am I right? what is the advantage???

 

[mikecross23]

The biggest advantage I noticed after switching from the blake's to the distel was that it loosens up to advance up the rope much easier. It can be tied short which keeps it close to your slack tender and you don't have to touch it on your ascent.

I'm Hooked!
Mike

 

[Ryan Willock]

hummmmm.... i do believe that i'll have to try it!

 

[NickfromWI]

The Blakes

Brian-
I was not implying that I use the Blakes. I don't. I was using that explaination of how some people do the splice for a split tail (if they WERE using Blakes, or splicing for someone who does), to raise a question about splicing flip lines that have an eye on each end.

Thanks, Mike for understanding.

Regarding the question, it seems that there is a shortness when an eye-to-eye sling in 16-strand rope would NOT have any of the original core strands. I was just wondering where that point is. Is it a four foot length...if so, would it also be 4'1", and if so, 4'2" and so on until you get to 9'......I just wanted to know where people would be drawing the line.

Pardon the unclarity of my question.

love
nick

 

[geofore]

breaking point

He said he wanted to test the splice because he didn't know his splice to be good. Point being the rope is the weakest point not the splice but unless he tries it he won't know this. My guy used the BlueStreak to pull on the SafetyBlue and the SafetyBlue broke about three feet in from the splice. Clean break, like it was cut with a razor, splice intact. I would trust the splice. There are half a dozen places near me that test materials and a rope testing place within one mile, I know my splices will hold but he doesn't know if his will. I suggested a cheap easy test to see what happens. You explain things much better than I do, you'll now have him worried how much he has weakened the rope. I do think his rope will break first to verify the splice will hold and he did splice it right. I need to mention again that you throw the spliced rope away after you test the splice and splice a new piece now that you have seen the rope breaks first.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

What do you mean, Nick, by shortness in a rope?

 

[NickfromWI]

Shortness

Good question, mike-
Let me clarify-

Okay, If you splice a 16 strand arborist climbing line, say only 4 feet long, and you put an eye on EACH side, there will be NO original core strands in the rope. The buried cover strands would overlap. Stop and picture that before you proceed (you could go back and look at the pic i posted...it would be the top on, i think.

Now, at what length would it no longer be appropriate to remove all the original core strands. This is important when I'm splicing a flip line. Say someone wants a six foot flip line. If I do an eye on each end, following the normal splicing directions, there won't be much original core strands in there....Should I have removed all of the core stands? If not, then what if it was only 5.5feet?, or 5.25?

at what length....or should I say, "shortness" is it no longer prudent to remove all those core strands?

Hope this makes more sense.

By the way, the drawings I posted, did they open up all-right for y'all?

love
nick

 

[BigJohn]

I found that a small pair of needle nose pliers work well for separating the cover yarns and pulling out the core. Lockstitching looks good but not always needed. I too will use the core yarns to stitch with or if I want a nicer finish I like to use whipping twine from Marlow. It is available in a few different sizes. I've been useing the Toss wand for awhile now and really like it. I found that it is pretty useless for the fly. I use spliceing fids and pushers from Samson for this. I would suggest getting the Toss video from Sherril. I still have to go back to video when spliceing the T900. Take your time and massage the rope.


Have fun!

 

[BigJohn]

I got mine from Rock and Rescue, you cand find it on the web. I got the 3/4" clear for $1 a foot. Not a bad deal a thought. You can also find some good stuff from west marine. They have tubeing with a glue on the inside that would help to keep the wrap in place.

 

[Tim Gardner]

This is the tool I use to splice 16 strand. It is a brake line for the wand and a cable puller to attach the rope to the wand. It pulls thru real easy.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

How much does the cable puller cost? Fresco has one on a stcik for a fid for around $35.

 

[Tim Gardner]

I think i paid less than $8.00 for mine and have made several splices with it.