Splitter Hydraulic Help

[Agent Orange]

Building a splitter using leftover parts from my father in law. I have a 3.5 hp Briggs, what I'm guessing is at least a 11gpm valve with 4 ports, 5" x 19" cylinder, 2.8 gallon tank, and what I'm guessing is a dual stage pump. Everything is fabbed and mounted minus the tank and splitter which are en route from Northern. Anyone see any major problems with the hydraulics? I know the Briggs is small, but it was free and if I can get 8-10 tons of force I'll be happy. We patterned it from an 80's Little Brave 15 ton horizontal.

 

[beaglebriar]

Pictures??

 

[GM_Grimmy]

All depends on the pressure of the system. I have a spreadsheet that tells me info by plugging in values. Even with 1500 psi in your system, you'd be getting just under 15tons of pressure when the cylinder goes out...........and would take about 9 seconds to extend. If you know the rod diameter of the cylinder I could tell you the return stroke time. I put 2.25 in there, as that's close to common size and it was about 7 second on the return stroke, so about 16 second stroke time.

Might help to install a pressure gauge before the valve to see what you are getting for pressure when you stall out the cylinder. Tell me that value and I can tell you what you are getting for output tonnage.

 

[muddstopper]

I think you might have a problem with such a small hydraulic tank. Not knowing the pump size, it would be hard to tell if the engine is big enough. The engine just pulls the pump, the pressure determines the splitting force. It will take about 1.5 engine hp to pump 1 gpm oil at 1500psi. So your little 3.5hp engine will only pump about 2-3 gal of oil at 1500psi. Methinks that even if you have a 11gpm 2stage pump, unless you set the pressure down really low, you will end up stalling the engine more times than you want to think about. Also, being able to only pump 2 or 3 gpm of oil is going to make that big 5in bore cyl really, really slow. Even at 1500psi, the 5in cyl will still put out about 10-12 tons of force so it will split a lot of wood, it just wont be able to do it with any speed.

You also need to know a little more about the valve. Is this something you bought new for a wood splitter. A valve that only flows 11gpm is a pretty small valve. I think most wood splitter valves are rated for 20gpm and the one I have is rated for 25gpm. Did the valve come off a used piece of equipment and you are just wanting to use it because you have it. If so, it is also important to know if the valve is a open center valve or a closed center valve, they wont interchange, altho if the valve also has power beyond, it might be able to be converted from closed center to open center or visa versa. Your wood splitter most likely will be a open center hydraulic system and I am guessing that since the valve only has 4 ports, it is not a power beyond valve, but could still be OC or CC.

 

[Agent Orange]

All depends on the pressure of the system. I have a spreadsheet that tells me info by plugging in values. Even with 1500 psi in your system, you'd be getting just under 15tons of pressure when the cylinder goes out...........and would take about 9 seconds to extend. If you know the rod diameter of the cylinder I could tell you the return stroke time. I put 2.25 in there, as that's close to common size and it was about 7 second on the return stroke, so about 16 second stroke time.

Might help to install a pressure gauge before the valve to see what you are getting for pressure when you stall out the cylinder. Tell me that value and I can tell you what you are getting for output tonnage.

Thank you for the help! I don't have the splitter here at home, it's still in my FILs shop until we get the welding of the wedge finalized. I will get back to everyone Saturday after we visit the in-laws. The pressure gauge I'll have to work on, we may have an older unit at work that's not being used or I can borrow.

 

[Agent Orange]

I think you might have a problem with such a small hydraulic tank. Not knowing the pump size, it would be hard to tell if the engine is big enough. The engine just pulls the pump, the pressure determines the splitting force. It will take about 1.5 engine hp to pump 1 gpm oil at 1500psi. So your little 3.5hp engine will only pump about 2-3 gal of oil at 1500psi. Methinks that even if you have a 11gpm 2stage pump, unless you set the pressure down really low, you will end up stalling the engine more times than you want to think about. Also, being able to only pump 2 or 3 gpm of oil is going to make that big 5in bore cyl really, really slow. Even at 1500psi, the 5in cyl will still put out about 10-12 tons of force so it will split a lot of wood, it just wont be able to do it with any speed.

You also need to know a little more about the valve. Is this something you bought new for a wood splitter. A valve that only flows 11gpm is a pretty small valve. I think most wood splitter valves are rated for 20gpm and the one I have is rated for 25gpm. Did the valve come off a used piece of equipment and you are just wanting to use it because you have it. If so, it is also important to know if the valve is a open center valve or a closed center valve, they wont interchange, altho if the valve also has power beyond, it might be able to be converted from closed center to open center or visa versa. Your wood splitter most likely will be a open center hydraulic system and I am guessing that since the valve only has 4 ports, it is not a power beyond valve, but could still be OC or CC.

Thanks for the reply! The valve to the best of my knowledge is for a splitter. My FIL had this entire hydraulic setup previously up and running some years ago. I took a stab at the GPM of the valve, so your numbers could be closer to the mark.

I usually research numbers on parts to find their source and information, usually take a ton of pictures as well. This time we fabbed balls to wall for two days while keeping the wife and young un happy, so I missed the mark researching. Cart fully in front of the horse in that regard. I will get more information this weekend.

Do you think the tank will drain to quickly or retain heat? I'm a commercial glazier, can wire basic projects, plumb a porta-potty, but hydraulics escape me to no end.

This is the little splitter I'm trying to replicate size wise.

This is the only picture I managed to snap of the home build. As it sits now, the cylinder, ram, pump and control are mounted.

Thank you fellas for the help, I wish it were sitting here so I could get the info quickly.

 

[muddstopper]

If the valve cam off a working splitter, then I would say you are good to go as far as the valve and pump are concerned. Tank size is usually recommended to size at 1 gal cap for every gallon of flow. If your pump is 11gpm, I would try to find at least a old propane tank or something to make a larger tank with. I used a 5gal size freon tank once and didnt have any problems. To get full potential out of your pump and cylinder, I think I would at least spring for one of the $100 Harborfreight 6.5hp engines. Not a necessity, but it would allow you to turn up the pressure a bit and get the full potential force out of the splitter. I suspect if you do use the small 3.5hp engine, you will endup swaping it out to someting larger sooner or later.

 

[Agent Orange]

If the valve cam off a working splitter, then I would say you are good to go as far as the valve and pump are concerned. Tank size is usually recommended to size at 1 gal cap for every gallon of flow. If your pump is 11gpm, I would try to find at least a old propane tank or something to make a larger tank with. I used a 5gal size freon tank once and didnt have any problems. To get full potential out of your pump and cylinder, I think I would at least spring for one of the $100 Harborfreight 6.5hp engines. Not a necessity, but it would allow you to turn up the pressure a bit and get the full potential force out of the splitter. I suspect if you do use the small 3.5hp engine, you will endup swaping it out to someting larger sooner or later.

Crap, I just spent 80.00 on that tank. I guess maybe I'll take it in the can and exchange it at a loss. If I understand you correctly, if the pump is at least 11GPM I'll need an 11 gallon tank?

I felt comfortable fabricating everything except the tank with its fittings and the wedge which I wanted to have higher carbon steel. All in, I've got 165.00 in everything. I'll run the little 3.5 and see how she does and run with what she can produce until death.

How well made are the Harbor Freight motors? I've got some good stuff from them and I've gotten some tools that weren't worth the receipt.

 

[blades]

HF gas engines have been receiving good reviews for the most part( The predator units). If it don't run correctly after set up take back for an exchange as there were some difficulties regarding the carb a while back, but I do not remember if that was on the grayxxx( this no longer carried) name or predator. latest 20% off coupon lists Predator brand items as not being eligible for the discount- but heck you could still try it never know.

 

[muddstopper]

I have seen a lot of splitter using less that 1gpm tank sizes, including mine. Small tank capacity means the oil is circulating faster than it can cool off. Heat kills hydraulics. Think about that 5in cyl at full extention and how much oil it takes to fill the cyl. Your little 2.8 gal tank is going to be pretty dry. Low oil leads to the pump sucking air which causes cavitation and oil foaming, all bad for the hydraulic pump. For a cheap tank, a 20lb propane tank will hold 5gal, One of the large freon tanks will also hold 5 gal. If you can weld up the rest of the splitter, you can build a proper tank. I would shoot for at least 5gal capacity, bigger if you can find one. .

 

[timbrjackrussel]

I have seen a lot of splitter using less that 1gpm tank sizes, including mine. Small tank capacity means the oil is circulating faster than it can cool off. Heat kills hydraulics. Think about that 5in cyl at full extention and how much oil it takes to fill the cyl. Your little 2.8 gal tank is going to be pretty dry. Low oil leads to the pump sucking air which causes cavitation and oil foaming, all bad for the hydraulic pump. For a cheap tank, a 20lb propane tank will hold 5gal, One of the large freon tanks will also hold 5 gal. If you can weld up the rest of the splitter, you can build a proper tank. I would shoot for at least 5gal capacity, bigger if you can find one. .[/QUOTE
A 16 GPM 2 Stage Barnes pump, propane tank, 10 HP G400 Honda, intake screen and 10 Micron return filter, using ATF. Never run motor at full speed, no overheating problems.

 

[Agent Orange]

Any information on this pump would be appreciated. It has a large adjustable screw under a cap on the input side .

Valve, again, any information would be awesome.

It runs and splits. A little slow, but not bad really. Forgive the super long line, it was all we had and it works. I'll probably change it down the road. After buying hydraulic fluid I have just under 200 in it .

 

[muddstopper]

That long line your using for a suction hose is going to cause you problems with the way it mounted. You have it looped up and over the splitter, higher than the top of the tank,and down to the pump. What this line is going to do is drain back to tank everytime the machine is cut off and make the pump work to create suction when you first start it up, Fix is easy, just loop the hose around behind the machine and then to the pump. Just keep the loop lower than the hyd fluid level.

I cant help you on size of the pump, but the Barnes is a good quality pump, if the engine will pull it, it should work fine. Your valve looks like it came off some other piece of equipment. Nothing wrong with it if it works for you, just have a question. Is the lever spring centered, meaning when you let off the lever, does it return to center on its own, or do you have to manually shift it from work to center? You might want to think about changing out those galvanized plumbing fitting also. They are not designed to work in a high pressure hydraulic system, I think the high pressure rating on one of those fittings is something like 650psi, your machine could see pressure spikes in excess of 5 times that amount. Not changing them out could result in a heavy oil bath, and loss of hydraulic oil at the least, and possible personal harm. That looks like a galvanized fitting on your pressure line (IN) to valve, I would at least change it for a high pressure fitting. The (OUT), return line should ever see high pressure so you can leave it in if you want to. I cant tell what kind of fitting are on the cylinder, but if they are galvanized, or water pipe, they should be changed out as well.

 

[Agent Orange]

That long line your using for a suction hose is going to cause you problems with the way it mounted. You have it looped up and over the splitter, higher than the top of the tank,and down to the pump. What this line is going to do is drain back to tank everytime the machine is cut off and make the pump work to create suction when you first start it up, Fix is easy, just loop the hose around behind the machine and then to the pump. Just keep the loop lower than the hyd fluid level.

I cant help you on size of the pump, but the Barnes is a good quality pump, if the engine will pull it, it should work fine. Your valve looks like it came off some other piece of equipment. Nothing wrong with it if it works for you, just have a question. Is the lever spring centered, meaning when you let off the lever, does it return to center on its own, or do you have to manually shift it from work to center? You might want to think about changing out those galvanized plumbing fitting also. They are not designed to work in a high pressure hydraulic system, I think the high pressure rating on one of those fittings is something like 650psi, your machine could see pressure spikes in excess of 5 times that amount. Not changing them out could result in a heavy oil bath, and loss of hydraulic oil at the least, and possible personal harm. That looks like a galvanized fitting on your pressure line (IN) to valve, I would at least change it for a high pressure fitting. The (OUT), return line should ever see high pressure so you can leave it in if you want to. I cant tell what kind of fitting are on the cylinder, but if they are galvanized, or water pipe, they should be changed out as well.

Thanks for the information. It's a huge help!

Would Napa or Orschelns carry the proper high pressure fittings? They are water pipe and honestly, without you telling me, I had no idea of the PSI ratings.

The control valve is spring centered and stops flow when you release it. It does not have a return and/or kick out detent to return the piston so it has to be held to return the piston. I believe it's the safer way to run things?

Which hose needs to move, red or green? I believe you're referring to the red marked line?

 

[GM_Grimmy]

The red hose.

Surplus center is a good place to get hydraulic stuff too, online.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2

 

[triptester]

The fittings from the tank to the pump and from the valve to the tank can be low pressure . All other fittings should be hydraulic high pressure.

 

[Agent Orange]

I've made some changes. 12" wheels, hitch and handle that drops to become the support, new Predator 6.5, and I have some new hoses yet to be installed. The little 3.5 never missed a beat besides being a little slow. The splitter powers through everything I put in front of it. Knots and crotches don't phase it.