Splitter photos?

[cabinman]

Big Bang Therory

what he said.....


FORCE & HP
Tons is only pressure times cylinder area. You can get 100 tons with a porta power, but no speed, if the cylinder is big enough.

Closed side area is ( (bore diameter) x (bore diameter) x 3.14159) / 4
Rod side, same calcs for the rod steel area, then subtract for net area.


How they get the tons? The box store units often rate at 3000 psi, when the relief valve in the valve is set at 2500 psi, and the cylinder is rated for 2500 psi. To me, that either indicates gross ignorance, or gross dishonesty.

At 2500 psi, with no back pressure on rod side,
4 inch bore = 15.7 tons, 4.5 bore = 19.9 tons
5 inch bore 24.5 tons 6 inch bore = 35 tons.


at 3000 psi, of course everything is 3000/2500 or 20% more force.


Speed is flow (gpm) divided by area. Bigger cylinder moves slower.

Horsepower is flow times pressure. A small motor will move 100 gpm but no pressure, or 1 gpm at high pressure.

Hp is (gpm ) x (psi) / 1714 theoretical, or divide by 1500 to account for losses, plus its easier to remember.

So the two stage pump is high flow, low pressure = hp. Then large section unloads, and small section is low flow, high pressure = same hp.

I split pretty small wood, usually 24 inch maximum, and usually mobile, not at a wood lot. So my main complaint is always speed, not force. For my usage 4 inch is plenty big, and light enough to move easily. I want lots of hp not for tons, but to get fast speeds while pushing some good pressures.

So, you can have a 3.5 hp 50 ton unit, or a 20 hp 10 ton unit- Cylinder and pressure are force, while engine and pump are hp.


ELBOW
There are charts and formulas, but in most mobile equipment, the variables of temperature, viscosity, exact type of fittings, etc make it a moot point. Usually design for suction size of pump or larger. Pump mfr tend to be optimistic. Although rated pump at 3600 rpm, the suction may be high at that speed with cold oil.

A screwed in 90 fitting is much higher pressure drop than a ‘bent stem’ 90 where it makes a sweeping bend from tubing or hose end.

Given the choice, better to have a 90 at the tank, and straight into the pump, as the flow into the gearset is less turbulent, but at these flows and hours of use no big deal.

Your hose is good routing for flow. Even a bent stem 90 out of the tank will have more restriction than straight fittings and smooth hose. Bent stem maybe equal roughly 3 feet of hose, a sharp 90 maybe equal 5 -10 ft of hose. Just off top of my head.

If you need a 90 at pump, not the end of the world, but a bent piece of tubing would be better. Another option is upsizing the elbow and hose, but not really necessary.

These are ‘good practice’ things but not the kiss of death. Unless you have a half inch suction hose, etc.

BTW, restricted suction does not decrease pump flow unless it is truly into blockage or cavitation. Just high vacuum conditions does not decrease pump flow, it is positive displacement after all. With enough blockage and serious cavitation, yes, pump flow is reduced but it will be very noisy.

kcj

Kevin, Theres tooooo much Big Bang Therory there, and not enough usable imformation, The Question was what If I had to use a nighty at the pump, how much would it affect the flow/vacume,. after going around you said it wood be better to have the ninty at the tank, instead of the pump,!!!!There are many, MANY options when plumbing your tank, Most people BUY there pump, instead of building it, AND there arent many options when hooking up the suction line,.Thats why I asked the simple question, of (at the pump) how would it affect flow, I asked you about a flow chart, and after a big bang speach,. you told me charts dont work on heavy equipment,. because they arent used in a controled enviroment,...REALLY,!!! As far as your claim that restricted flow on the suction side Dosnt affect the PUMP unless its in a cavitation mode is BS, But thanks anyway T,C, E,J,

 

[blackdoggy]

Christ cabin man stuff it Kevin is a EXPERT he knows what he is talking about and if you can not wrap your mind around his answers or my answers (which are very similar) then stop asking the questions.

 

[cabinman]

Expert

Christ cabin man stuff it Kevin is a EXPERT he knows what he is talking about and if you can not wrap your mind around his answers or my answers (which are very similar) then stop asking the questions.

And now YOU are a Hydraulics Expert,....LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOOLO

 

[blackdoggy]

I never said I was but I do understand the basics and system design isn't that difficult it's all a matter of understanding basic fluid power theories and design.

 

[kevin j]

Kevin, Theres tooooo much Big Bang Therory there, and not enough usable imformation,
****sorry, what i am trying to present is understanding, not just recipe answers to the single question at hand. Everyone elses situation is slightly different, the exact answer won't apply to them, but if they understand the concept, they can figure out an answer.
The first post was answer to question of hp and tons and pump.

ou said it wood be better to have the ninty at the tank, instead of the pump,!!!!There are many, MANY options when plumbing your tank,
****not quite my response. Better to have straight both places. Second best is bent stem 90, third best is sharp 90. and always best to have striaight at the pump and 90 at the tank if necessary.

Most people BUY there pump, instead of building it, AND there arent many options when hooking up the suction line,.
****but they do need to know WHICH size pump to buy, which ports they need for their application, and understand why they picked it.

Thats why I asked the simple question,
****in enginering, there are usually no simple answers. Its all about the compromises: hp vs force vs. cost vs. weight vs. production vs. maintenance and reliability, etc etc.


of (at the pump) how would it affect flow, I asked you about a flow chart, and after a big bang speach,. you told me charts dont work on heavy equipment,. because they arent used in a controled enviroment,...REALLY,!!!
*****yup. does not effect flow, only pressure drop. If you can give me the operating temperature, viscosity, viscotiy index, specific gravity of fluid, and all dimensions of the fittings, surface roughnesses, etc. But I don't even use those in the day to day design world. Generally, shoot for 2 to 4 feet per second speed in the suction line. slower is better. Straighter is better. His hose loop is nice, just need to make sure is doesn't collapse on startup with high vacuum.


retricted flow on the suction side Dosnt affect the PUMP unless its in a cavitation mode is BS,
**** Affects the PUMP (even light cavitation can destroy it), but not the pump FLOW, unless it is serious cavitation. another poster here had a suction filter on, was getting 15 second cycles. removed it got 9 seconds. Because it was truly in serious cavitation and sucking vapor. Once he reduced the pressure drop below the 'net positive suction head' required by the pump (hows that one!) and is pumping liquid, the gpm does not change at all. Test the cycle time of your gear pump system. Increase the suction hose from 1 inch to 4 inches inside diameter. Will it change flow? nope, only pressure drop.
Flow in a positive displacement pump is pump size times rpm it turns. Unless it cavitates, that's the way it is.....


Here's another topic to stir up conversation:
-Pumps produce pressure True or false...
-Pumps produce flow True or false...

I do appreciate the feedback,

kcj

 

[triptester]

Pumps produce pressure -false

Pumps produce flow- true

Resistance to flow produces pressure.

Did I pass

 

[blackdoggy]

Yep you got it.

 

[cabinman]

positive feed back

Kevin, Theres tooooo much Big Bang Therory there, and not enough usable imformation,
****sorry, what i am trying to present is understanding, not just recipe answers to the single question at hand. Everyone elses situation is slightly different, the exact answer won't apply to them, but if they understand the concept, they can figure out an answer.
The first post was answer to question of hp and tons and pump.

ou said it wood be better to have the ninty at the tank, instead of the pump,!!!!There are many, MANY options when plumbing your tank,
****not quite my response. Better to have straight both places. Second best is bent stem 90, third best is sharp 90. and always best to have striaight at the pump and 90 at the tank if necessary.

Most people BUY there pump, instead of building it, AND there arent many options when hooking up the suction line,.
****but they do need to know WHICH size pump to buy, which ports they need for their application, and understand why they picked it.

Thats why I asked the simple question,
****in enginering, there are usually no simple answers. Its all about the compromises: hp vs force vs. cost vs. weight vs. production vs. maintenance and reliability, etc etc.


of (at the pump) how would it affect flow, I asked you about a flow chart, and after a big bang speach,. you told me charts dont work on heavy equipment,. because they arent used in a controled enviroment,...REALLY,!!!
*****yup. does not effect flow, only pressure drop. If you can give me the operating temperature, viscosity, viscotiy index, specific gravity of fluid, and all dimensions of the fittings, surface roughnesses, etc. But I don't even use those in the day to day design world. Generally, shoot for 2 to 4 feet per second speed in the suction line. slower is better. Straighter is better. His hose loop is nice, just need to make sure is doesn't collapse on startup with high vacuum.


retricted flow on the suction side Dosnt affect the PUMP unless its in a cavitation mode is BS,
**** Affects the PUMP (even light cavitation can destroy it), but not the pump FLOW, unless it is serious cavitation. another poster here had a suction filter on, was getting 15 second cycles. removed it got 9 seconds. Because it was truly in serious cavitation and sucking vapor. Once he reduced the pressure drop below the 'net positive suction head' required by the pump (hows that one!) and is pumping liquid, the gpm does not change at all. Test the cycle time of your gear pump system. Increase the suction hose from 1 inch to 4 inches inside diameter. Will it change flow? nope, only pressure drop.
Flow in a positive displacement pump is pump size times rpm it turns. Unless it cavitates, that's the way it is.....


Here's another topic to stir up conversation:
-Pumps produce pressure True or false...
-Pumps produce flow True or false...

I do appreciate the feedback,

kcj

Absolutily,.. better than watchin TV,. Kevin The point Iam makin here is Get to the point,..We are not building a rocket here,..And dont want to know how to build one,...If some one asks a simple question, That 1 or 2 lines will answer, and they have to read three paragraphs to get your responce,that still dosnt answer there question, is frustrating, .period You said,..EVERY ONE elses situation is slightly different,...The exact answer wont apply to him,..Case and point,..We are talkin about a 90 degree fitting in a suction line,..Dosnt matter weather we are all using the same hydraulic fluid,...Your second response,..It matters how you spec your hydraulic pump, ETC What the H--l, does a 90 degree fitting in the suction line have to do with specking your hyd pump,? The more I read, the less I learn, about the simple question,.. Its like asking a polished politition a direct Question, And they dance, waltz, and talk about the cost of tea in china, global warming, But never answer your question,.Your last equasion, you mentioned a guy that posted, and he gained a faster cycle speed, when he removed his filter of the suction side, he went from 15 sec to 9 sec,...If I remember correctly,..that was the splitter that was assembled wrong from the factory,..Hardly relevent to a 90 degree fitting in the suction line,..Thanks for posting E,J,

 

[blackdoggy]

:censored: Quiet cabin man your starting to make your self look bad :taped:

 

[cabinman]

Experinced

:censored: Quiet cabin man your starting to make your self look bad :taped:

Iam actually reading your responce with a measureable leval of respect,...YOU are vary experinced in that field,.......

 

[boostnut]

cabinman, you're doing a fine job of making yourself look like an ass. I, for one, appreciated the lengthy explanation to your question. I'll assume most of us reading this thread are here to compare notes and learn a few details about building a splitter.

Kevin, thanks for the info, answered a couple of my questions before I got a chance to ask them.

 

[cabinman]

novels

cabinman, you're doing a fine job of making yourself look like an ass. I, for one, appreciated the lengthy explanation to your question. I'll assume most of us reading this thread are here to compare notes and learn a few details about building a splitter.

Kevin, thanks for the info, answered a couple of my questions before I got a chance to ask them.

Your probably a big fan of fiction novels 2, I for one like to get to the point, instead of going around in circles,..T,C, E,J,

 

[kevin j]

I think best to get back to the topic at hand: pics of splitters.

Those who want to understand and learn will have to wade through my explanations. Cm does have a valid point: i get lengthy, BUt my goal is not to answer just the question at hand else I would be answering q's forever. If I can explain why, then you solve your own problems next time.

For recipe card fixes, sorry, not my job.

Give a man a fish, he can eat for a day.
Teach a man to fish, and he spends all the grocery money on beer and leeches. (and hydraulic parts and saws)

kcj

 

[cabinman]

hey kevin

I think best to get back to the topic at hand: pics of splitters.

Those who want to understand and learn will have to wade through my explanations. Cm does have a valid point: i get lengthy, BUt my goal is not to answer just the question at hand else I would be answering q's forever. If I can explain why, then you solve your own problems next time.

For recipe card fixes, sorry, not my job.

Give a man a fish, he can eat for a day.
Teach a man to fish, and he spends all the grocery money on beer and leeches. (and hydraulic parts and saws)

kcj

Sorry If I got a little Inpaitent, I was raised to Get to the point, and I overlook alota things as a result, I get down your way now and then ,..Maybe I can buy you a Beer and shoot the chit with ya T,C, E,J,

 

[cabinman]

pics

Still running!

http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41767&d=1166316776

http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41881&d=1166457443

more pics please

 

[Sprig]

My take>
Pumps do produce pressure (by utilizing resistance) if the intake is bigger than the outlet, as the speed of it is increased too, thats why they're call pumps, not sucks.
Pumps produce flow.

No idea if I are right or not, but thank you KCJ for your informed and concise explainations, until reading them I had a pretty feable grasp of hydrodynamics (?) but think I am now getting the big picture, a good learning curve
Information like this is priceless outside a classroom imho.




Serge

 

[cmetalbend]

lol

Oh I am so staying the he** out of this one. lol

 

[boostnut]

Here is my modified version of an old Didier Mfg splitter (they made these units 20+ years ago for Sears, John Deere and a number of others). I reused the beam, cylinder, wheels and tires, engine and pump combo and the rest is pretty much history. After cutting the stationary wedge off of the end of the beam I welded it to the push plate so, yes, those components were also original. Man what a difference! Yesterday I ran it for the first time and learned that this thing will wear a guy out in a hurry. This design beats the chit out of the original "lowrider" Didier version. If you've got a splitter (homemade or otherwise) and the working height isn't comfortable do yourself a BIG favor, stop where you're at and make some changes. Once you get the beam height correct you will be worn out long before your back starts screaming at you.

 

[eric_271]

A few more. Most of my money was spent on the cylinder, rated for constant 3000 psi and the pump. Engine came out of my old toro mower and the company I work for gave me most of the steel and paid for the hyd, lines and fittings. Close to $400 just for lines and fittings, saved me a lot.

 

[boostnut]

Eric, nice job on that splitter, definitely built for a lifetime (or 2). Looks like you need to add an aux. cylinder to pivot the beam to a vertical position. I'm guessing it is pretty heavy on the cylinder end to pivot by hand.