Stale fuel

[OM617YOTA]

I dump old but not "bad" fuel in my old 8.7:1 compression truck, as long as I think it's just not up to normal snuff, but not possibly damaging to run. Diluted in 35 gallons of gasoline and the truck not needing much octane to begin with, it doesn't much care.

Bad fuel, anything contaminated or that I think might gum up intake valves, I don't mess around with, and don't try to save. That stuff doesn't get anywhere near any of my engines. As mentioned earlier in the thread, not worth rolling the dice on $5 of fuel causing thousands of dollars in damage. That fuel gets dumped into a coffee can and left to evaporate in a large gravel area in front of my shop. Gravel area is big enough that I could light up the fuel and intentionally burn it off without causing any danger or excitement. After awhile the volatile compounds are gone and all that's left is about 1/10th of the original volume of liquid, seems like kerosene. That gets recycled with my waste engine oil.

OP, if you're not using your equipment much, you might have a hard look at the canned premix fuels. They last for years, and if you're only using a couple gallons per year, the cost really isn't a consideration.

 

[DeadDruid]

I hadn't heard of premix fuels. I'll inquire - that might be the best solution.

 

[StihlsawuserMS361]

Just burn it in a controlled, sensible way, a little at a time

 

[Mad Professor]

I teach high school welding classes, we go over all of that same stuff. I also make every kid take a big sniff of acetylene and propane so they know what they smell like in case there ever is a leak.

It's a fun time showing them a balloon full of acetylene being lit, then show them one of a neutral mixture of acetylene and oxygen being lit off. With the neutral mixture it is heard on the other side of the school, and the SRO officer is usually sent down to see what happened.

Speaking of fire hazards and acetylene, this is a fun video I like to show my students too:

Those oxy/acetylene balloons you need to be careful with/avoid. Not sure what a "neutral mixture" is?

I had friends who made them for 4th of July "fireworks", one detonated from static while filling it. Thankfully, the tanks did not get involved, but one has permanent hearing loss. Those can be comparable to a M80 firework.

The same with using/repurposing old/stale gas, don't win the Darwin award.

That said I still use it for parts cleaning, outside. But I prefer using diesel.

And starting brush fires when well diluted with drain oil, in a safe manner.

Small amounts I've used to clean parts with, have ended up on noxious weeds, or gets poured into my drain oil collection jugs.

Better safe than sorry/stupid.

 

[PapaWhitebeard]

View attachment 1205837

we call that “winning the Darwin Award”

 

[wildwes]

Those oxy/acetylene balloons you need to be careful with/avoid. Not sure what a "neutral mixture" is?

I had friends who made them for 4th of July "fireworks", one detonated from static while filling it. Thankfully, the tanks did not get involved, but one has permanent hearing loss. Those can be comparable to a M80 firework.

The same with using/repurposing old/stale gas, don't win the Darwin award.

That said I still use it for parts cleaning, outside. But I prefer using diesel.

And starting brush fires when well diluted with drain oil, in a safe manner.

Small amounts I've used to clean parts with, have ended up on noxious weeds, or gets poured into my drain oil collection jugs.

Better safe than sorry/stupid.

View attachment 1205837

Oh yes, the balloon is very dangerous if you are filling it up by hand, I stopped doing that once I realized how dangerous it was. I haven't done it in a couple of years, the next time I have the class I do that in I intend to fill it remotely with a long piece of surgical tubing, and light it with an electric match and a model rocket ignition box, so I am not close to it at any time. I saw someone else who had it set up that way and it was pretty slick, and safe.

My terminology is probably not the right chemical terminology, but by neutral mixture I meant the mixture where a torch burns cleanly, with no excess acetylene or oxygen.

And I agree about being safe with the stale gas, lots of ways to dispose of it, not all of them safe.

 

[fishdrivel]

The machine shop used to weld up quite a lot of fuel tanks, both gas and diesel. Procedure was more of less the same for both. Drain, flush, dry, purge with argon or C02 for an hour before and during welding. Can't remember the flow rates they used for the purge cycle.
Years ago, I had to do some work on a stand by diesel pump down at a fuel depot in jersey. Had to take a tank confinement class before I was allowed to work on the pump. Fumes are only flammable at a certain concentration, basically the same as any fuel air ratio. Flame front won't propagate if there's too much or little air. They were just as worried about breathing air as they were fire/ explosion hazzards. Was taken very seriously. Had quite the procedures laid out for any hot work being preformed.
As to getting rid of old fuel, do whatver you want with it. More fuel is spilled on our roadways and at gas stations a year then the need to worry about dumping a couple ounces on weeds or mixing it in with the truck.

The NFPA has several methods listed for inerting fuel tanks, which can be anything from a huge fuel tank to a gas tank on a car or even a 55 gallon drum. Many people are killed when cutting drums and oil tanks to-repurpoe. Unfortunately the many NFPS books on fire safety are not easily available to the public. I have heard many stories of how back yard warriors inert their tanks before cutting or welding that are not on the NFPA approved methods. Most of them work - most of the time. I watched a welder in his professional welding shop blow the entire building apart and he died in the explosion. I was a kid and he was a family friend. Someone accused me of calling out other posters. I'm not calling out anybody. I just want to give proper safety information to those who might listen.

 

[OM617YOTA]

I hadn't heard of premix fuels. I'll inquire - that might be the best solution.

Aspen is one brand I'm familiar with over there. Looks like it's available on Amazon.co.uk. Doubtless there are a pile of other options.

Several brands make a 2 cycle and a 4 cycle fuel, make sure you're getting the 2 cycle version or are mixing your own oil into the 4 cycle version.

 

[PapaWhitebeard]

Dad had a good friend who was a mechanic. He happened to come over one day when I was cleaning a dirtbike chain with gasoline. He chewed me out royally. I really bummed because I looked up to this guy. Dad told me later he had third degree burns all over one arm from cleaning parts with gas.

That sucks for your dads friend. Really—that is rough and I empathize (to the extent anyone who hasn’t suffered it can).

My best friend is an Oakland firefighter. I was his best man. He was mine. His dad was an Oakland firefighter too.

Fire safety was literally beaten into us.

(That said I’ve never seen guys who like burning stuff and blowing stuff up more than firefighters ).

Anyway we were told all the stories and trained with all the warnings on fire safety. I come from a family of metal workers and similar but different safety warning drilled into me my entire life.

The clincher was seeing a dude with severe burns all over his body… lucky for him it somehow didn’t get his face. But we grew up as swimmers—in the water 4-6-8 hours a day. This guy who had been burned was on the team with us.

So we spent HOURS a day seeing these plasticy-looking flesh that was the result of his burn injuries. Because when you’re underwater in a swimming pool where you can see everybody and it’s hours and hours you end up seeing everything there is to see. (If not for a gal 3 grades ahead of me who swam ahead of me in my lane there’s no way I would have made it through all those hours of down-and-back… and you bet I still think about her )

Anyway those images of the burned dude on the team will NEVER leave me. I think about him every time I’m smoking around gasoline or dumping gas on my burn pile before I light it or heating up diesel in my big parts washer to strip paint off whatever dangerous thing I’m doing. And I’ve been doing this stuff for half a century. And I don’t want to hex myself but… so far so good is all I’ll say.

I suspect that for the audience on this forum we all have some amount of experience or training in this area. We are always balancing safety vs doing what needs to be done.

Let’s face it if we wanted to be *perfectly* safe we wouldn’t be climbing trees and working with super dangerous tools that can kill us.

Sure we’re trained. Sure we wear the safety gear. But accidents happen. Even the Oakland firefighters (who I happen to know are using Stihl MS462 rescue saws) who wear all the gear and are the best of the best in terms of training and experience have experienced injury accidents on the job from chainsaws. Equipment fails. Things happen. Not ALL injury accidents are a result of user error. It’s just a part of life.

So I’m just suggesting that a healthy safety warning is good form. None of us can be reminded too much to be safe.

That said nobody in this thread needs to be chastised for sharing what they do with their bad fuel.

Should buff out.

solid

 

[PapaWhitebeard]

Aspen is one brand I'm familiar with over there. Looks like it's available on Amazon.co.uk. Doubtless there are a pile of other options.

Several brands make a 2 cycle and a 4 cycle fuel, make sure you're getting the 2 cycle version or are mixing your own oil into the 4 cycle version.

There’s loads of premix fuel available in the US. Both in 40:1 and 50:1. Dirtbike shops carry it if you don’t have a chainsaw dealer near you.

 

[PapaWhitebeard]

The NFPA has several methods listed for inerting fuel tanks, which can be anything from a huge fuel tank to a gas tank on a car or even a 55 gallon drum. Many people are killed when cutting drums and oil tanks to-repurpoe. Unfortunately the many NFPS books on fire safety are not easily available to the public. I have heard many stories of how back yard warriors inert their tanks before cutting or welding that are not on the NFPA approved methods. Most of them work - most of the time. I watched a welder in his professional welding shop blow the entire building apart and he died in the explosion. I was a kid and he was a family friend. Someone accused me of calling out other posters. I'm not calling out anybody. I just want to give proper safety information to those who might listen.

+1 even rinsing it out with water 2 or 3 times especially for old fuel tanks… not always enough… and for ME in the risk/reward analysis it just isn’t worth the risk to cut corners on something that can literally become a shrapnel filled deadly bomb…

 

[DeadDruid]

OM617YOTA and barfer, thank you. I'll certainly look further into premix.
Mark

 

[PapaWhitebeard]

OM617YOTA and barfer, thank you. I'll certainly look further into premix.
Mark

I mean it’s totally a case of what’s best for you. I wouldn’t put a lot of energy into overthinking it. Those premixed fuel bottles cost a lot more than mixing it yourself but if you don’t go through a lot of fuel they make sense. They’re also easy to store and transport. I keep a quart bottle of premix in my chainsaw bag for emergencies. They also have a long long shelf life when you buy it premixed.

Oh and BTW if you’re calling Dirtbike shops you’re gonna need to specify “bottles of gas and oil already mixed in a 50:1 ratio” or whatever ratio you’re looking for because for Dirtbike guys they call “premix” what we call “two stroke oil” just FYI. (I don’t want you to call ahead and drive out there only to find they’re selling gallon jugs of two stroke oil and not what you’re looking for.)

 

[OM617YOTA]

There’s loads of premix fuel available in the US. Both in 40:1 and 50:1. Dirtbike shops carry it if you don’t have a chainsaw dealer near you.

OP doesn't live in the USA.

 

[PapaWhitebeard]

OP doesn't live in the USA.

Yeah I do though… that’s why I specified.

But the “motorbike” scene in the UK is huge and they’re gonna have premix fuel at UK shops too… I just don’t have personal experience with UK moto shops (just loads and loads of Brit racers )

 

[DeadDruid]

Like so many things, the key is often knowing what to ask. I appreciate the advice that I've received from each of you... and thank you for both educating me, and warning me about some possible mistakes.

What we in the UK call "dirtbikes" are actually mountain bikes (human powered), so I'll have to find out what we call off-road motorbikes.

Mark

 

[DeadDruid]

Hah! Found it already. Amazon sells Aspen2 at £40 for five litres, but a local "garden machinery" store wants £24.50 for the same product.

Now I just need to get rid of the old stuff. Well I've got plenty weeds for that!

Thank you once again.

Mark

 

[PapaWhitebeard]

find out what we call off-road motorbikes.

Mark

You said it: the Brit’s I used to race with call them “motorbikes” and yes specifically off road motorbikes. But if you google “motocross” you’ll find them or if you call any motorbike shop if they aren’t an offroad motorbike shop they’ll be able to point you to one. Motorbike guys/petrolheads love love love to talk about motorbikes (grin)

Good luck!

 

[Breckinridge Elkins]

My best friend is an Oakland firefighter. I was his best man. He was mine. His dad was an Oakland firefighter too.

Small world. My grandpa was Oakland Fire. But that was 40 years ago.

 

[koko3052]

Thanks for the kind words. I'm typing this now as we aren't in the shop today, my students are working on their OSHA 10hr certification, so I don't have much to work on at the moment

I don't do as much with gas welding as I would like, due to cost- I have roughly 120-175 students each year, and my budget is $4500. That has to buy EVERYTHING I need- steel, wire, gasses, parts, tools, safety gear, etc. Acetylene has gotten expensive, and even though oxygen is cheap, when I run oxypropane, I go through a LOT of oxygen, so it's still expensive. Likewise, I don't do much TIG with them because of cost of gas and tungstens. I have switched all of my MIG machines over to 100% CO2 to save money. Stick welding is still my bread and butter though, and that is the majority of what I do with them. Once they learn stick, I let them MIG a little. Older students get to play with a little TIG in their second level class.
We're blessed that Lincoln will sell consumables such as L-56 MIG wire and most generic stick electrodes for $150/lb to schools, with free freight on orders over $500. Without that our welding time would be much more limited.

Either way, that's the stuff I enjoy teaching

$150/lb. for electrodes?? You are not blessed by Lincoln…… you are being SCREWED ROYALLY!