Starting a diesel in freezing weather ?

[Madman Mark]

I remember having to use a can of "eether" (spelled wrong I'm sure) sprayed into the muffler but I hear of people lighting small fires under a skidder etc... sometimes to get them started, what is the purpose of this?
How cold does it have to be before I can't start a tractor/skidder without keeping it plugged in over night ? What if its parked somewhere where it cant be plugged in ? Will a boost from my truck start it ?
I want to get this figured out now before I have to deal with it.

 

[Lumberjack]

If it has glow plugs then don't use "eether" because the glow plugs can ignite the eether in the intake and make a big back-fire on you. I think that there is an eether equivelant for diesels though.

The purpose (I guess) is to warm the battery up to get it working better and to heat the oil and other lubricants.

Batteries work best when they are warm, their output is greater. I am not sure of the number but there is a point that a fully charged battery will put out nothing because it is so cold that the chemical reaction can't occur.

A jump off from your truck would help, just make sure you have good cables so you don't fry them.


Carl

 

[Jumper]

Fully charged batteries, functioning glowplugs, and a block heater work wonders. If it is really cold consider battery blankets as well.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

When I had a diesel in my clam truck I added block heaters on both sides of the engine. Get a magnetic heater to put underneath the battery or a battery blanket. I also put a magnetic heater on the oil pan. All of the heaters were ganged together and plugged into a HEAVY duty timer. I set the timer to start about three hours before we got to the shop. The truck also had an ether injector mounted on it. The ether came in a container that looked like a propane tank like I used for my soldering torch. There were tubes that went down to nozzles right in the center of the intake manifold. Touching the button on the dash would squirt ether right into the intake manifold. The truck would always start with just ether but I w0uld plug it in to be gentle on the engine.

If you aren't near power you could get a generator to make juice. Cheaper to run a generator all night than put wear on the engine or risk it not starting.

Here's another sure-fire start up method.

ONe hose will tee into a pressure hose in your pickup or personal vehicle. Find the hose coming out of the water pump and going to your heater core. Then tee into a return line to the radiator. Do the same on the diesel. Use hydraulic quick couplers on the ends of the hoses. I mounted the female connectors on the engines and made up a pair of jumpers with male ends on the hoses.

It's been a few years since I had the system but I think that I jumped the pressurized line, from the water pump, on the warm engine into the pressure side of the cold engine. Then connect the other line. You'll make a transfusion of warm and cold. In short order you'll start a warm engine.

You might look around on the diesel to see if there are any ports on the engine block that you could plumb into. Ideally, one on the bottom and the outlet on the opposite side, top, would be the best.

When I had this setup, the longest I had to run the warm up was about 25 minutes.

I learned this from a buddy who worked in Fairbanks as a heavy truck mechanic when the Pipeline was being built.

Tom

 

[Franz]

"Here's another sure-fire start up method.

ONe hose will tee into a pressure hose in your pickup or personal vehicle. Find the hose coming out of the water pump and going to your heater core. Then tee into a return line to the radiator. Do the same on the diesel. Use hydraulic quick couplers on the ends of the hoses. I mounted the female connectors on the engines and made up a pair of jumpers with male ends on the hoses.

It's been a few years since I had the system but I think that I jumped the pressurized line, from the water pump, on the warm engine into the pressure side of the cold engine. Then connect the other line. You'll make a transfusion of warm and cold. In short order you'll start a warm engine.

You might look around on the diesel to see if there are any ports on the engine block that you could plumb into. Ideally, one on the bottom and the outlet on the opposite side, top, would be the best."

BE VERY VERY CAREFUL using this method. 3 serious and very expensive repairs can occurr if you don't know EXACTLY what you're doing. There are different antifreezes in use today, and if they mix you have BIG expensive problems. The second thing that can occurr, if this process isn't done properly is developing an air bubble in a cooling system that can be a major pain in the a$$ to get out. The third problem comes from thermal shock when you circulate the cold coolant from the Diesel directly into the hot engine of the pickup.
When using a pickup to preheat a heat exchanger plumbed into the pickup's heater circuit will prevent all of the above problems.
A safer method is to employ a small propane point of use water heater to prewarm the diesel, or a propane fired diesel engine heater.
Using ether to start any engine is always a last resort because ether washes the lube oil off the cylinder walls. Propane from a Bernz-O-Matic torch is far safer than ether, and safer for the engine.
Another safe procedure is to employ jumper cables to the diesel for a few minutes to warm the batterys up before starting the machine. Do NOT leave the batterys connected to the truck when starting because most equipment had a much larger alternator than the truck, and you can blow the truck alternator when the diesel starts.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Franz,

You brought up some points that I would like to discuss.

"BE VERY VERY CAREFUL using this method. 3 serious and very expensive repairs
can occurr if you don't know EXACTLY what you're doing. There are different
antifreezes in use today, and if they mix you have BIG expensive problems."

Valid, but I ran the same AF in all of my engines.



"The
second thing that can occurr, if this process isn't done properly is developing an
air bubble in a cooling system that can be a major pain in the a$$ to get out."

This never happened to me once after using it for four Minneapolis winters. Since I used good quality guick connects there is little chance of air entering. Notice "little" not "no" chance I've had to bleed out air bubble before. Not a big deal but a nuisance. The easiest way is to run with the radiator cap loosened. Other wise, start to bleed off at the highest heater hose.



"The
third problem comes from thermal shock when you circulate the cold coolant from
the Diesel directly into the hot engine of the pickup."

Do you know from experience that this is valid? When I consider the thermo dynamics it seems to be a small consideration. You forget that water will only get to be 32 degrees not ambiant air temperature. With AF in the water it might get down to the protection level that the mix is blended. Even so, the volume of colder AF from the cold engine into the warm one through a 3/4" hose is small enough to make the thermal shock a small issue it seems to me. I never ran the warm engine at anything above idle. When I first started this system I would connect, then jump back in the van for coffee. I would watch the temp gauge to see if the colder fluid would drop the gauge. I never saw more than a needles width drop. The heater never changed either.

"A safer method is to employ a small propane point of use water heater to prewarm
the diesel,"

Wouldn't the cold water damage this heater too? After the heater warmed up and started to circulate, cold water would enter a warm heat exchanger. Granted, if their was damage, the heater would be cheaper to replace than the warm engine in the other vehicle. Do these units have circulating pumps? If so, we're back to using block heaters and battery warmers aren't we?

Tom

 

[Franz]

Thermal shock IS becoming a problem with newer engines, due to the plastic and aluminum manifolds coming into play. Look at some of the plastic and rubber gasketing systems used on newer engines, and you can almost see the potential problems.
On systems where the heater core and cold engine are connected in paralell, thermal shock potential is minimal, but so is warming on the cold engine. Maximum thermal shock potential exists when you use a hot diesel pickup truck to heat up something large, like a 600 ci Cat, and there are guys doing that. Since you can build a heat exchanger for under $50, and eliminate potentila problems, it's the way to go in my book.
While loosening a radiator cap on the hot truck may minimize airlock possibility, I won't take that chance. I have some pictures of a guy here who instantly got to look like a boiled lobster by doing exactly that.
As far as using a point of use propane water heater, it's easy since the normal convection current in the coolant will heat an engine up very well, if the coolant circuit is properly built. It's also essentially performing the same function as a block heater installed in the engine. Plumbing is the same as when using one of the single cylinder generator/hotbox units found on road tractors.

 

[Crofter]

Ether?

Bad news in general. Especially if not properly used. I have had my fingers on a bent connecting rod from a 353 Detroit diesel that was the result of ether. If there are gloplugs or manifold gloheaters, ether is a no go for reasons mentioned previous posts. Make sure the engine is cranking over before you start to spray. Even so there are sometimes some shock load rattles that have to be bad for bearings and piston rings and lands as it fires up. Air cooled diesels are hard to get heat into and lots of equipment has been burned up by trying to put a fire under the skid pan. The inevitable oil leaks and wood debris in there does a wonderful job of a total machine warmup!

Frank

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Franz,

Thanks for taking the time to share those details. All good points.

Tom

 

[Madman Mark]

The tractor is used in the woods so it's far away from any electricity.
A generator would eventually get stolen by hunters or ATVer's.
What if I just took the battery out at the end of the day when I knew it was going to be a really cold night ? I could bring it home and leave it inside overnight. Also keep it from getting stolen.
So should ether never be used or only on a diesel with no glow plugs ? I thought all diesels had glowplugs, guess I've got alot to learn.
You mentioned a torch, what do I heat up, the battery or the oil pan or both?
Let me guess, a battery blanket needs electricity, right ?

 

[UNBforester]

A mechanic at previous company in Detroit used to pour a small amount of gasoline on a rag and cover the air intake with it. He said it was better for the engine than ether was but I'm not sure what effect gasoline fumes would have in a high compression diseal.
Secondly, some of the skidder operators use a propane tank with a "torch" on it to warm the pan up on a cold morning. You may be able to get them at Atlantic Cat in Dartmouth or some other heavy equipment dealer.

Dave

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Be careful of using an open flame unless you want to have a large weiner roast. I don't know about your heavy machinery but mine have always had a decent covering of grease and oil grime.

Here's another heater solution.

You will need power so a generator might be in order.

I have a kerosene 40k BTu heater. The outlet is 7" so I use a reducer to bring it to 6". Attach a ninety degree elbow.

Take a section of square or rectangular heating duct and box both ends. These come in a variety of lengths, you'll know how long a piece to buy.

On opposite ends of the box, cut out holes that are just a smidgen over 6" dia.

Slip the el from the heater in one hole and slide the other hole in under the engine. Fire up the heater. Within minutes the engine will be warm. You do need to be careful of melting wires/hoses, etc. Use good sense and place the outlet directly under the oil pan.

Sometimes I have to use this for my chipper. I have some short pieces of tubing to add as risers to get the heat right up on the oil pan and closer to the block. After and ice storm the chipper was skinned with ice so I used longer sections and els to direct the heat around the engine to melt the ice before starting.

The heater can double as a body warmer too. With a tarp setup to block the wind you can warm up and dry gloves too.

A pilot friend of mine uses a similar setup on his plane.

Tom

 

[Madman Mark]

I would imagine that a small propane heater used for camping would work just as well as anything.
There's no open flame to catch any grease or oil on fire and you could just set it on a block of wood to get it at just the right height.
Some are even safe to use in a tent so they should be pretty safe.
Make sure you have a fire extinguisher handy.
I'd rather lose a days pay instead of using a torch or lighting a fire underneath and risk losing it all.
Any opinions ?

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Those small propane heaters don't give off enough heat to warm an engine.

They really shouldn't be used inside tents either. They give off carbon monoxide and other nasties. Without good ventilation you could kill your self.

Tom

 

[lync]

Take the battery out at the end of the day. Store it inside at home or shop overnite. Batteries over 32 degrees have almost double the cranking power.
Corey

 

[kf6ivi]

Take a look at this web site. They make a coolant heater that runs off diesel from the tractor or truck. I am think about get one for my truck.

http://www.espar.com/index.htm

Ethan

 

[iworkit]

Hot

I had my problems with cold starts you guys won't believe me on this but pouring hot on your engine worked for me before try it. You can connect your garden hose to your sink that could be in your laundry room and theirs your hot water.

 

[DDM]

Hmmmm what happens when that water freezes all over your engine?

 

[ASETECH]

Diesel cold starts

I'm a mechanic with 15 + years around diesels. There are really three issues you need to think about in cold weather starting.

1. Use fuel additive to keep fuel from gelling. Diesel contains paraphine, when it gets cold it gels, will not flow through filters or lines. add additive before it really cold. Many oil companies preblend durung the winter.

2. Diesels use heat from compression to start not spark. When the air is cold and the engine is cold it's much more difficult to build the heat required to light one off. That's why you have block heaters. Block heaters were not made to heat up a cold engine. When you can pplug them in hot and leave em overnite do so, that's how they are meant to be used. Yes they will heat a cold engine but it takes a long time on the bigger engines. If you have glow pugs they can help alot.

3. cranking speed and batteries. Because you need the heat from compression its important to have a good enough electrical system to crank a cold engine fast enough to build some heat on the compression stroke. If you have a slow crank forget it. All the heat in the world won't start a slow cranking diesel.


Eethier. Be careful with it. You can spray it in the intake to help. It will make it a lot harder to crank. DO NOT load up the intake with it. It's hrd on enignes and can cause engine damage (glazed liners which lowers cranking temperatures making harder starts). Allow glow plugs to cool before you use either. Most glow plug engine have precups, the textbooks say not to use either in precup eninges. WHen they are outside you know what happens. Just be careful, a little goes a long way. If it bascfires and blows some out the intake keep cranking it. Pull the fire back into the engine. I like to have 2 people so I can tell the guy running the starter to keep cranking if it backfires.

Hope this hepls, sorry about the bad spelling. I'm a mechanic not and english teacher.

 

[Vman]

my cousin has 2 Peterbilts and apparently this is what the truck drivers do during freezing temps when diesel fuel gells-up. they add 5 gallons kerosene to the tanks which liquifies the gelled-up diesel fuel.
i do not know how many gallons total their tanks hold, so i do not know the proportion of kero-to-diesel.