Canyon Angler
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Nitromethane and nitrous oxide? Or just straight-up oxygen and acetylene?
Stihl MS 291 burnt out after 1 hr
- Thread starter west041
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Nitromethane and nitrous oxide? Or just straight-up oxygen and acetylene?
Out of interest, which saws have brakes that work like that? I just have two, an MS180 and MS260, but on both of these movement of the brake lever doesn't have any braking effect until the over centre mechanism snaps the brake on. I had assumed all saws worked like that.CR888 said:
Also as an aside both stop if the brake is applied even at full throttle, again surely that's how they have to work. So possible to rev the engine with the brake on, but not possible to cut.
Unlike a lot of people I don't put the brake on when I start my saw, especially the plastic saws...
I find it hilarious that 2 and 3 years after I fixed this saw and moved on people are still coming back to this thread to talk about running the saw with the chain brake on. Some people on here have a reading comprehension problem.
To summarize: although I was initially a little miffed with Stihl for not covering the issue with the original saw in this thread, I realized it could have been operator error that caused the issue and just went ahead and replaced all melted parts myself and got the MS291 going again.
I can say with certainty -
-The saw was never run with the chain brake on
-The saw was never started or idled with chain brake on
-I absolutely do not think the MS290/291 are plastic "disposable" saws nor do I blame the dealer or Stihl for not covering the repair. From the pictures it certainly looks like someone ran it with the brake on but that is not what happened.
Since the repair in 2016 we've put hours and hours and cut many cords of wood with this saw with absolutely no problems. Everyone that uses it is conscious of not leaning on the 291 too hard and making sure to keep the chain moving and checking the clutch area for heat. I still don't know for certain what caused the problem but I do wish some on here would read the entire thread before commenting. I doubt that it was sap that caused the issue, I think I probably leaned on the saw too hard while bucking up the spruce I was cutting. That, coupled with the 290's poor oil delivery rate and inboard clutch probably caused the extra heat that started melting stuff. Hope this puts an end to the speculation from people who couldn't read all 25 pages of this thread.
To summarize: although I was initially a little miffed with Stihl for not covering the issue with the original saw in this thread, I realized it could have been operator error that caused the issue and just went ahead and replaced all melted parts myself and got the MS291 going again.
I can say with certainty -
-The saw was never run with the chain brake on
-The saw was never started or idled with chain brake on
-I absolutely do not think the MS290/291 are plastic "disposable" saws nor do I blame the dealer or Stihl for not covering the repair. From the pictures it certainly looks like someone ran it with the brake on but that is not what happened.
Since the repair in 2016 we've put hours and hours and cut many cords of wood with this saw with absolutely no problems. Everyone that uses it is conscious of not leaning on the 291 too hard and making sure to keep the chain moving and checking the clutch area for heat. I still don't know for certain what caused the problem but I do wish some on here would read the entire thread before commenting. I doubt that it was sap that caused the issue, I think I probably leaned on the saw too hard while bucking up the spruce I was cutting. That, coupled with the 290's poor oil delivery rate and inboard clutch probably caused the extra heat that started melting stuff. Hope this puts an end to the speculation from people who couldn't read all 25 pages of this thread.
Like you, I don't know what could cause the saw to melt on the clutch side other than having the chain stuck in wood or chain brake on, etc. After having several cheapie saws that I've used for several years I don't think there are very many disposable saws, Stihl or otherwise..
I didn't have time to read all 25 pages but assuming that it didn't get gummed up (I'd say kinda unlikely personally imo) and that the chain brake was definitely not engaged. If it was engaged I would think the brake band would show some serious wear, if it does, there you go, if it does not, well then the chain brake was NOT on to cause the damage. I would think on a brand new saw the chain brake band would have near zero wear if it was not engaged.
Something I'd think possible that wouldn't be the OP's fault is possible oiler issue from the factory. Run it without the bar on and make sure it oils good. If it doesn't, well that might have been the issue in the first place.
Also the only way something got gummed up that would have caused that I'd think is the bar oiler hole might have got plugged with sap. If that was the case then the chain probably would have gotten silly hot as well, you should have seen smoke coming off the bar between cuts before it got that hot to damage your saw in a 16" log. I've had a few times where there was an oiler issue and I'd see the bar smoking way before I damaged the saw so I'd think that scenario here is unlikely.
Another possibility could have been there was oil in the clutch drum either from the factory or from running it and cleaning with air or other possible ways, one way or another getting oil inside the clutch drum, causing slip & heat. I've had this happen on a number of saws where they oil a lot, especially a husqvarna 288 I'm in process of rebuilding. It oils SO MUCH its silly and if you are just idling it / warming it up for 30 seconds to a minute it would throw so much damn oil everywhere it would get inside the clutch by itself. Had a newer Craftsman with a terrible clutch design that would **** the bed on itself and oil it's own clutch too. Probably unlikely the saw did it itself on a 291, I've ran a new one myself through a few days of large trunks with no issues last year. But it is possible that it had oil in there from factory, or someone ran it for a bit with chain on and not cutting for long enough the inside got covered, or if you cleaned it out after the first run with air you have to be careful not to blow oil into the clutch. I've done it multiple times now and am now more aware of it. IF I had to guess without seeing the bar & chain to judge further and just going by the first pictures I'd probably lean toward oil in the clutch somehow or another. If you generated that much heat with lack of oil to bar that chain I'd think would be so blued any file would skate off it.
If the chain/bar were ok and looked like oil was getting to them, and there was no wear on the brake band, then I'd say there is only one other possibility, and that's oil in the clutch. Also if you only saw smoke from the clutch area and not the chain/bar area and you know for sure the brake has no wear then again I don't see any other possibility.
*I didn't realize this thread was that old until I read the last page here, hah. Maybe the deductions will be helpful anyway for you or others.
Something I'd think possible that wouldn't be the OP's fault is possible oiler issue from the factory. Run it without the bar on and make sure it oils good. If it doesn't, well that might have been the issue in the first place.
Also the only way something got gummed up that would have caused that I'd think is the bar oiler hole might have got plugged with sap. If that was the case then the chain probably would have gotten silly hot as well, you should have seen smoke coming off the bar between cuts before it got that hot to damage your saw in a 16" log. I've had a few times where there was an oiler issue and I'd see the bar smoking way before I damaged the saw so I'd think that scenario here is unlikely.
Another possibility could have been there was oil in the clutch drum either from the factory or from running it and cleaning with air or other possible ways, one way or another getting oil inside the clutch drum, causing slip & heat. I've had this happen on a number of saws where they oil a lot, especially a husqvarna 288 I'm in process of rebuilding. It oils SO MUCH its silly and if you are just idling it / warming it up for 30 seconds to a minute it would throw so much damn oil everywhere it would get inside the clutch by itself. Had a newer Craftsman with a terrible clutch design that would **** the bed on itself and oil it's own clutch too. Probably unlikely the saw did it itself on a 291, I've ran a new one myself through a few days of large trunks with no issues last year. But it is possible that it had oil in there from factory, or someone ran it for a bit with chain on and not cutting for long enough the inside got covered, or if you cleaned it out after the first run with air you have to be careful not to blow oil into the clutch. I've done it multiple times now and am now more aware of it. IF I had to guess without seeing the bar & chain to judge further and just going by the first pictures I'd probably lean toward oil in the clutch somehow or another. If you generated that much heat with lack of oil to bar that chain I'd think would be so blued any file would skate off it.
If the chain/bar were ok and looked like oil was getting to them, and there was no wear on the brake band, then I'd say there is only one other possibility, and that's oil in the clutch. Also if you only saw smoke from the clutch area and not the chain/bar area and you know for sure the brake has no wear then again I don't see any other possibility.
*I didn't realize this thread was that old until I read the last page here, hah. Maybe the deductions will be helpful anyway for you or others.
Well I think it is telling that I've run MS200, 250, 026, 028, 290, 291, 029 Super, 041 044, 066, 076, 880, for over 15 years now in all kind of wood and have only ever had this clutch melt. I'll admit that I may have leaned on it too hard but some on here like to make some pretty ridiculous claims. How dumb do you have to be to run it with the chain brake on?
Woodchunk1980
New Member
I know this is from 6 years ago but I recently had the same thing happen. I used it for an hour with no problem. I shut it down went to get some lunch came back and fired it up and it started smoking. I definitely did not have the break on. I watched a guy explaining the inertial brake system and seems as though it can be engaged with out the lever engaging and go unnoticed. I have used a Poulan my dad gave me four several years, biggest problem was the carb gumming up on it. I will say though it worked fine for the first hour.
I hate myself for reading all 25 pages christ
To sum this up for anyone else
Clutch and/or band overheated. OP claims to be extremely experienced and had no idea this was happening. Tons of personal attacks and sarcasm from both sides. Possibly some factory defect but unlikely. Stihl denied warranty and was apparently very rude but "has seen many burned up 291s so who knows".
Consensus is overall it was operator error and even if it was a factory defect or slipping clutch how did the OP, a very experienced operator who owns 15 pro level saws, not notice at all that anything was happening. He bought a new clutch, drum, oiler, got it running again for $50 in parts.
Trust me, do not sucked into the entire thread, it's a waste.
To sum this up for anyone else
Clutch and/or band overheated. OP claims to be extremely experienced and had no idea this was happening. Tons of personal attacks and sarcasm from both sides. Possibly some factory defect but unlikely. Stihl denied warranty and was apparently very rude but "has seen many burned up 291s so who knows".
Consensus is overall it was operator error and even if it was a factory defect or slipping clutch how did the OP, a very experienced operator who owns 15 pro level saws, not notice at all that anything was happening. He bought a new clutch, drum, oiler, got it running again for $50 in parts.
Trust me, do not sucked into the entire thread, it's a waste.
I have read all 25 pages, it was an interesting read. I guessed right away it was a case of leaning on it in the cut and the clutch constantly slipping in the drum.
People like Andy, lone wolf, Pioneer and Harley have a huge wealth of knowledge and have been involved with saws and repairing them for decades. When they and others see this very common issue, although there are a few things that can cause it, it’s always the same result - user error.
They are top blokes and will tell you how it is. The intention isn’t to offend, but they’ve heard it all before about people saying it wasn’t them that caused it when it really is. This issue is almost a weekly occurrence on the forum of smoked clutches. Patients wears thin and it’s told how it is. Essentially, if you are having to lean on it in the cut, either the chain is dull, it’s on backwards, there is no hook or the depth gauges are too high.
None the less, it’s a lesson learnt and you’ve come out the other side with more knowledge and experience, you’ve fixed it and it runs well by the sound of it. It’s great you’re still part of the forum and that you’re still around @west041
People like Andy, lone wolf, Pioneer and Harley have a huge wealth of knowledge and have been involved with saws and repairing them for decades. When they and others see this very common issue, although there are a few things that can cause it, it’s always the same result - user error.
They are top blokes and will tell you how it is. The intention isn’t to offend, but they’ve heard it all before about people saying it wasn’t them that caused it when it really is. This issue is almost a weekly occurrence on the forum of smoked clutches. Patients wears thin and it’s told how it is. Essentially, if you are having to lean on it in the cut, either the chain is dull, it’s on backwards, there is no hook or the depth gauges are too high.
None the less, it’s a lesson learnt and you’ve come out the other side with more knowledge and experience, you’ve fixed it and it runs well by the sound of it. It’s great you’re still part of the forum and that you’re still around @west041
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Funny how if anyone says anything the reader disagrees with, it becomes a personal attack. I think that our world has lost the ability to discuss anything.
These online "discussions" are dependent on the scant info provided by the O.P., so determining anything from this view is fairly hard to do. So folks shouldn't take things so serious, and also be a bit more able to handle someone disagreeing with you.
These online "discussions" are dependent on the scant info provided by the O.P., so determining anything from this view is fairly hard to do. So folks shouldn't take things so serious, and also be a bit more able to handle someone disagreeing with you.
It's not really what was said, it was the way it was said. It's far more effective to get your point across if you can do it without little digs and quips. The internet has made it incredibly easy to say things to someone you would never say to their face. That said, the OP took the bait hook line and sinker which fueled the fire, and also refused to accept anyone's opinion until deep into the entire thing.
Yea he got roasted pretty good.we will never know the cause 100 percent ii think it was chain brake caused maybe a bit from him being new to chain brakes or maybe it was set partialy on from the factory.
I run older saws I have an Ms250 I like it but rarely use it as it is finicky to start I am aware of the plastics and chain brake set up and am care full.
If I bought a new saw I would try it at the dealer
If the chain brake did not totaly stop the chain at any speed or throttle position Give me another one
Try the saw in blocks of wood the saw should cut with no over heating at any throttle setting.
I would ask the dealer can I cut spruce or balsam with this saw or is it allergec to sap
I have cut thousands and thousands of spruce and balsam trees with various saws and with a daily cleaning No problems.
Todays world every body is really big brave and opinionated when they sit feeling safe and protected behind their computer screen.
Nobody wants to take responsibilty for their own actions like you get drunk at my house and then drive your car and get a DUI and its my fault for giving you drinks.
I find on forums if some one gives an opinion on a problem all of a sudden there are a bunch of guys who know nothing jumping in to cheer the bully guy on and belittle the problem guy.Just like a flock of Ravens on a moose carcass.
The people who post a problem probably know in their hearts what they did wrong but are looking for mommy to tell them it wasn't their fault .
I can help with my opinions on chain saw problems but Im no Shrink.
Kash
I run older saws I have an Ms250 I like it but rarely use it as it is finicky to start I am aware of the plastics and chain brake set up and am care full.
If I bought a new saw I would try it at the dealer
If the chain brake did not totaly stop the chain at any speed or throttle position Give me another one
Try the saw in blocks of wood the saw should cut with no over heating at any throttle setting.
I would ask the dealer can I cut spruce or balsam with this saw or is it allergec to sap
I have cut thousands and thousands of spruce and balsam trees with various saws and with a daily cleaning No problems.
Todays world every body is really big brave and opinionated when they sit feeling safe and protected behind their computer screen.
Nobody wants to take responsibilty for their own actions like you get drunk at my house and then drive your car and get a DUI and its my fault for giving you drinks.
I find on forums if some one gives an opinion on a problem all of a sudden there are a bunch of guys who know nothing jumping in to cheer the bully guy on and belittle the problem guy.Just like a flock of Ravens on a moose carcass.
The people who post a problem probably know in their hearts what they did wrong but are looking for mommy to tell them it wasn't their fault .
I can help with my opinions on chain saw problems but Im no Shrink.
Kash
Canyon Angler
Addicted to ArboristSite
I generally don't "lean on" any of my saws, including the 660. The saw should pull itself into the cut with not much more than its own weight. If you need to sit on a saw to get it to cut, that's a good clue something isn't right.
Yeah, usually a dull chain...
Well it's 2022 and not much has changed. I bought a new Sthil MS291, started it and ran the blade but never cut anything. The first day I was ready to cut, I started the saw and placed on the ground to warm up. 20 seconds later blue smoke started pouring out. Dealer said chain break was on and burnt out the clutch. How is this possible if I just started the saw and wasn't touching the trigger?
Guessing you left it in the high idle position with the brake on
The chain brake is still working and produces heat even at idle. It makes it worse if you have clutch springs that are a little loose but 20 seconds doesn't seem like very long. The clutch drum and shoes are both made of metal and shouldn't burn out in 20 seconds. You probably shouldn't run it with the brake on though.
I guess so but I just started it and placed it on the ground. So just starting it can burn out the clutch? Followed the starting instructions in the manual. What is going on here?
Im not most handy folk, but Im not the least either . . .
Im not most handy folk, but Im not the least either . . .
Choke until it pops. Move lever to hi idle no choke until it starts. And blip the throttle to take it off hi idle. And then you can engage the brake and set it down safely
