Straight from ISA's mouth

[ClimbinArbor]

What is the difference between an arborist and a certified arborist?

A: Arborists are trained professionals that are knowledgeable and equipped to provide proper tree care. They are specially trained to provide a variety to services to maintain trees. ISA Certified Arborists are individuals who have achieved a level of knowledge in the art and science of tree care through at least three years of experience and have passed a comprehensive examination. They are also required to continue their education in order to maintain their certification, ensuring their knowledge is updated on the latest arboriculture techniques. ISA Arborist Certification is a non-governmental voluntary process that operates without mandate of law. It is an internal self-regulating device administered by the International Society of Arboriculture, and therefore, cannot guarantee or assure the quality of performance. Certification provides a measurable assessment of an individual’s knowledge and competence required to provide proper tree care.
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is it just me or did they just admit that their is no difference between a "certified arborist" and a well "trained arborist"

now dont get me wrong i love our big brother, but sometimes i wonder......

 

[Dadatwins]

There are a few problems with the cert program that ISA has in my opinion. #1 is you do not need to even climb trees to be a certified arborist, there are many that have NEVER climbed a tree and are called certified arborist. No good in my opinion. I had suggested when I was first certified to the ISA that they have a different class, like climbing arbo and non-climbing but they were worried about discrimination. It does sometimes seem like a $$$ thing but at the end of the day, I would rather have the certification than not.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

What is the difference between an arborist and a certified arborist?

(snip)

is it just me or did they just admit that their is no difference between a "certified arborist" and a well "trained arborist"

(snip)...

Yeah, it's just you. Read what you posted, from ISA, again.

To Dadatwins: I don't believe that an arborist absolutely has to climb. It helps, when it comes to closer inspection of the canopy and such, but if you can get someone to bring you samples, or can train a high-power set of binocs on a trouble area, then you might be able to diagnose a problem. Climbing is better, though.

ISA's Tree Worker/Climber Specialist Certification is supposed to give the public a way to ascertain that a given individual can climb, but in checking out that program, I have found the climbing "exam" to be a timed trial, a competition, of sorts. I do climb every week, on gigs, and off, but I don't do the timed bit. I do not worry about hustling up a tree to satisfy some boss, since I own my company. Also, with the high fatality rate in our line of work, I think the tree biz is a great one to prove the old addage, "Haste makes waste!" I take my time, get the job done, have many satisfied customers. If it takes me a half hour to get to a final tie-in because I'm working parts of the tree as I go up, big deal. ISA doesn't seem to recognize that, since they give you ten minutes to reach the FTP. I know many of you would have no problem doing that, but, as I said, I like to take my time.

 

[Job Corps Tree]

Isa Ctw

The ISA CTW Test is timed but for a time limit not a competition on how it should climb 45 to 50' up in a tree and reach the stations set for the test , 1 pole saw , 1 hand saw and the top tie in point 30 min. is allowed for this climb. anyone that can't get it in 30 min. needs to work harder on the climbing part. H@11 I did it at 52 , but I have had students time out on that same test.

 

[ClimbinArbor]

What is the difference between an arborist and a certified arborist?

A: Arborists are trained professionals that are knowledgeable and equipped to provide proper tree care.

(snip)

It is an internal self-regulating device administered by the International Society of Arboriculture, and therefore, cannot guarantee or assure the quality of performance.
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sometimes i think its a racket to pull on our wallets lol

 

[Toddppm]

They're overstating the definition of an Arborist I think. Anybody that cuts a tree can call themselves an arborist no?

A good portion of the general public still doesn't know what an arborist is or can even pronounce it. I've shown up on estimates and the people will say, oh you're an arboculture or abharist etc.... too many times.

 

[clearance]

The ISA CTW Test is timed but for a time limit not a competition on how it should climb 45 to 50' up in a tree and reach the stations set for the test , 1 pole saw , 1 hand saw and the top tie in point 30 min. is allowed for this climb. anyone that can't get it in 30 min. needs to work harder on the climbing part. H@11 I did it at 52 , but I have had students time out on that same test.

Is that right? 30 minutes just to get 50' in a tree? Wow, I can cut off every branch to get there, blow off a big top at 50' and saw off some big chunks on my way back down, is less than 30 minutes. Done it many times, with spurs of course. Thats a pretty pathetic test, granted, I would have to learn how to hump a rope to do it but is that it?

I really love the line "have passed a comprehensive examination". More accurate would be "have passed a multiple choice test" Don't sound as good does it? Like I have said before, its mainly about the illusion of competence.

When I first came to this site the ISA was on a pedestal, like the Pope to Catholics, since then the shine has been tarnished, here, by many. And I don't get slapped down as much, I guess because some ISA members share my views, and I never hear from Mr. Dunlap anymore, after his less than ethical ways were brought to light following that sordid debacle with him and his buddy from B.C. Hydro.

All that being said, if the ISA has helped you learn, thats great, it has many good things going for it and hopefully will garner more respect.

 

[Thillmaine]

clearance

"Is that right? 30 minutes just to get 50' in a tree? Wow, I can cut off every branch to get there, blow off a big top at 50' and saw off some big chunks on my way back down, is less than 30 minutes. Done it many times, with spurs of course. Thats a pretty pathetic test, granted, I would have to learn how to hump a rope to do it but is that it?"
Everyone at this site is aware of you and your spurring and chunking etc...Do you feel the need to continmually boast that you have only one skill? I mean sure I have no doubt that you can do all of that faster then most of us...But most of us strive to have a well rounded repitoure, we can do removals (with a flipline and a rope (imagine that)) pruning, planting and a variety of other skills. So if you want a medal then take one, you certainly deserve one with your wide variety of skills; but if you want to work for a company that has some variety, not just killing yourself doing removals daily, then widen your horizons, open up your mind...then maybe someone might actually respond to your worthless banter

 

[Sunrise Guy]

The ISA CTW Test is timed but for a time limit not a competition on how it should climb 45 to 50' up in a tree and reach the stations set for the test , 1 pole saw , 1 hand saw and the top tie in point 30 min. is allowed for this climb. anyone that can't get it in 30 min. needs to work harder on the climbing part. H@11 I did it at 52 , but I have had students time out on that same test.

You have ten minutes to get to the ftp, then twenty minutes to do the two stations. That was the set-up when I took it. I timed out getting to the ftp because the judge said I spent too much time on the ground talking about a new climbing invention of mine. I didn't know they had started the clock. Saturday I'll do it again because it's a freebie, but I give myself a 15% chance of completing the climb, in time. I like to climb thirty feet, have a nip on the water bottle, look at the birds, talk to my groundie, etc. Yeah, if I wasn't the boss, I'd be :censored: . At 55, I figure I can climb the way I want to. If ISA wants fast climbers, that's OK with me, but I think safety and getting the job done right is far more important. In my years in the biz, I've never had an unhappy customer who said to me, "Man, you climb too slow!" I get the job done in the time I say I will, for the price I bid. With being booked up for the next three weeks, right now, I don't think being a CTW will make a bit of a difference in my life. I passed the written exam a year ago and passed the aerial rescue around the same time. I guess I decided to do this just for the heck of it.

 

[clearance]

"Is that right? 30 minutes just to get 50' in a tree? Wow, I can cut off every branch to get there, blow off a big top at 50' and saw off some big chunks on my way back down, is less than 30 minutes. Done it many times, with spurs of course. Thats a pretty pathetic test, granted, I would have to learn how to hump a rope to do it but is that it?"
Everyone at this site is aware of you and your spurring and chunking etc...Do you feel the need to continmually boast that you have only one skill? I mean sure I have no doubt that you can do all of that faster then most of us...But most of us strive to have a well rounded repitoure, we can do removals (with a flipline and a rope (imagine that)) pruning, planting and a variety of other skills. So if you want a medal then take one, you certainly deserve one with your wide variety of skills; but if you want to work for a company that has some variety, not just killing yourself doing removals daily, then widen your horizons, open up your mind...then maybe someone might actually respond to your worthless banter

Not boasting, lots of guys are better than me, I learned from them, never said I was the man.
Now Thill, I notice you didn't go near anything I said about the ISA, you just ragged on me for being a one horse pony. Care to dispute anything I said?

 

[Thillmaine]

Isa

Isa is what it is..for me nothign but a raise and some respect from older guys.. There are many guidlelines that are put forth by various organizations typically they are just that guidelines. ISA is a stepping stone, not every man who is ISA certified could idenify a dawn redwood. Not every guy who does crane work could estimate the weight of a peice accuratley. OSHA says one handing is wrong...It gets done plenty though..
So essentialy what i am saying is there are many arborist who are far superior to ISA guys who may not have the cert, jus tlike their are many arborist who have it and are terrible arborists...
BUT most of those guys realize its a good starting point to continue their education in the arboreal world...Get their cert and try to get better. ISA isnt a cult, or a milestone, or even some sort of grading scale for people who do tree work. It is just a test that attempts to judge people on there horticultural/arboricultural knowledge to the best of its ability. No test will satisfy everything in every way.
If you want to continue to ##### then so be it, but if you want to make a difference write some suggestions for the test and send it to them. Make some more production related questions or whatever woudl appease you..

 

[pdqdl]

If you read a little more carefully, you can see that all the ISA definition means is that the certified arborist has passed a test: THEIR test. And really, that is all there is to answering the original question.

I am certified, but that certainly does not mean that I know more than a lot of you guys. It might only mean that I am very skilled at taking tests. It also indicates that for whatever reason, I have gone to the trouble of jumping through their hoops, which should indicate to the people interested in that sort of thing that I might be the person they want in their yard. That's why I took the test.

It's not much different than hiring an accountant, or a certified public accountant. Except the CPA exam is genuinely rigorous, and does have a great deal more recognition. Notice that you can also claim to be an accountant, and not have any sort of real training. Not a real good idea, but it does happen.

When the government steps in and begins regulating our jobs, then we will probably have a more meaningful certification than just ISA. Hey! give them credit, here. Is anyone else doing a better job of certifying tree workers?

Regarding the timed climber test: I believe that test is geared toward certifying workers as capable of climbing to certain standards from an employers point of view. As an employer, I am much more interested in hiring someone who certifiably can climb quickly than someone who has only shown an ability to get there eventually.

 

[Dadatwins]

To Dadatwins: I don't believe that an arborist absolutely has to climb. It helps, when it comes to closer inspection of the canopy and such, but if you can get someone to bring you samples, or can train a high-power set of binocs on a trouble area, then you might be able to diagnose a problem. Climbing is better, though.

I took my certified test before ISA had any other test available, Certified Arbo was the only test. It was and still is my opinion that to call someone a Certified arborist they should have a good working knowledge of the dynamics of trees. The should know when you cut into elm is it is stringy and when you cut poplar it will rip and pop. Knowing the different characteristics of different species is very important both for the climber and property owner. For the climber it means selecting a different tie-in on an oak and a willow tree. For the property owner it means recognizing a cavity in an elm in not as bad as a silver maple. This is knowledge that can only be gained from doing the work and being in the tree. My fear is companies hiring individuals that are Certified Arborist in title only and they are put into positions to train individuals on the job.

ISA's Tree Worker/Climber Specialist Certification is supposed to give the public a way to ascertain that a given individual can climb, but in checking out that program, I have found the climbing "exam" to be a timed trial, a competition, of sorts..

I believe in order for the test to stay legit they had to make some sort of a time limit, both for the folks administering the test the people taking it. By setting a time limit they can schedule how many test can be done in a day. I watched a few and no one came close to expiring the time limit. The test really is the most basic example of climbing skills there is, I would never expect someone who claims to have just passed the test to be ready for a real world hazard takedown without further review.

I am not knocking the ISA program, it does have merit, I wish they would enforce there own rules more stringingly beside just logo infractions. I realize the program is voluntary and self regulated, this can be good and bad. THe good being that an individual can get certified on his own and not have to be part of a large entity. The bad being that enforcing its own rules runs the risk of losing membership. As I said above, sometimes it seems like a money grab but I would still rather have it than not. TCIA sees this and has there own certification programs but TCIA is more focused on big business whereas ISA focus in on individuals. At some point I would like to see the ISA and TCIA combine forces to get a bigger voice in the industry. JMHO
P.S. to whoever suggested that the government get involved with certification, no thanks, take a walk down to the local gas station and look at how well government involvment has helped that industry.

 

[pdqdl]

....

P.S. to whoever suggested that the government get involved with certification, no thanks, take a walk down to the local gas station and look at how well government involvment has helped that industry.

OH NO ! I never suggested that the government get into regulating certification. I just figure that they will get around to it eventually.

 

[Nailsbeats]

Oh good, I can call myself an arborist again, that's a relief. And here I have been putting all this treework on hold until I get certified (sarcasm).

Really, I think the I.S.A. organization can kiss my A.S.S. Bunch of political B.S. It is clear to me that their long term agenda is goverment regulated tree care. A step in the wrong direction IMO, and a step on property owner's rights.

 

[treemandan]

I don't need the ISA, they need me! Well here I am, pucker up baby you might just get lucky one day when I sign up.

 

[treemandan]

"Is that right? 30 minutes just to get 50' in a tree? Wow, I can cut off every branch to get there, blow off a big top at 50' and saw off some big chunks on my way back down, is less than 30 minutes. Done it many times, with spurs of course. Thats a pretty pathetic test, granted, I would have to learn how to hump a rope to do it but is that it?"
Everyone at this site is aware of you and your spurring and chunking etc...Do you feel the need to continmually boast that you have only one skill? I mean sure I have no doubt that you can do all of that faster then most of us...But most of us strive to have a well rounded repitoure, we can do removals (with a flipline and a rope (imagine that)) pruning, planting and a variety of other skills. So if you want a medal then take one, you certainly deserve one with your wide variety of skills; but if you want to work for a company that has some variety, not just killing yourself doing removals daily, then widen your horizons, open up your mind...then maybe someone might actually respond to your worthless banter

Don't be like that, He is just remarking. I could get that high and do the same thing in the same time but I don't have to use my spikes if you like. Just don't ask me to do it with a pole saw and I usually don't use a hand saw upstairs very much either.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

Oh good, I can call myself an arborist again, that's a relief. And here I have been putting all this treework on hold until I get certified (sarcasm).

Really, I think the I.S.A. organization can kiss my A.S.S. Bunch of political B.S. It is clear to me that their long term agenda is goverment regulated tree care. A step in the wrong direction IMO, and a step on property owner's rights.

FWIW, OSHA is now ramping up their study on our biz, according to the latest TCIA mag They are going to have a set of regulations for us, lumped together in "Landscaping Services" or something similar. Coincidentally, maybe, yesterday, doing a gig in a development on the outskirts of town, an OSHA inspector was making the rounds. This is very rare, in Austin, TX. The guy sat in his car, about 100' away from our site, and was busy writing a bunch of stuff. As he drove by, I could see his front seat, and it had tons of forms and booklets on it. We had been given a heads-up from a construction guy down the way, before the fed got there, but we feel we operate a clean operation so no sweat. Since the guy never approached us for a chat, I think he was just making informal observations, for now.

I don't give a rat's :censored: if the fed wants to regulate us. I went through this crap, at the state level, when I was in the tattoo biz. I had the first licensed shop in the State of Texas. It does require you to clean up your act, if you're taking shortcuts in what you do, but by and large, once you get up to speed, it's pretty much business as usual, unless you get a real :censored: as a site inspector.

 

[mckeetree]

Oh good, I can call myself an arborist again, that's a relief. And here I have been putting all this treework on hold until I get certified (sarcasm).

Really, I think the I.S.A. organization can kiss my A.S.S. Bunch of political B.S. It is clear to me that their long term agenda is goverment regulated tree care. A step in the wrong direction IMO, and a step on property owner's rights.

I am for more regulation in this industry. I think it would be good for businesses like mine to get some the riff raff out of the tree care business. Too many people have lost sight of what the term "self employed" means.

 

[Bigus Termitius]

Government regulation is far from a cure all. It usually comes with its own unique price.

Big government can't take care of itself properly, why then should we trust it to save us from ourselves?

I'm no anarchist, but more government is not the answer. I'm sure we'll have to find that out the hard way though...as usual.