Suggestions for a sickly elm? Pics included!

Arborist Forum

Help Support Arborist Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I can tell you from looking at the pics with street widening that I would mess around with those trees, roots have been cut. There is a borough in the neighborhood that redid the curbs cutting roots away on a bunch of old oaks and three of them uprooted since, one landed on a house.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Treeseer's somewhat well known for risking both clients and their properties on behalf of defective trees.

Calling that 6 foot crack a seam though, is an indication that SC has the same propensity for taking risks.

However I suspect SC will give his client the straight dope, and let the client decide the tree's fate.

jomoco
 
Jomoco, go catch up on your CEUs. Definition of a seam by ISA: "Lines formed where two edges of bark meet at a crack or wound."

I have a "propensity" for doing whats right. That may be removal, that may be nothing. It's tough to look at three inch pictures over a computer and make an accurate judgement call at times. Please don't assume I'm a crackpot based on the fact that I choose to take a logical and methodical approach in assessing risk. But like you said I will give the straight dope because that's called good customer service.

No hard feelings, I know you know tree work, but don't call me out and expect me to tuck my tail. I've been doing this for a while as well. There's more than one way to skin a cat.
 
I have tremendous respect for Treeseer and you SC, or I wouldn't have expressed my opinion that you'd do right by your client mate.

Were it not for the high value targets on both sides of that English elm? I'd follow Treeseer's recs. except of course those goofy cable termination thingamabobs he's so fond of.

Guy and I have known each other for over a decade now online on various forums. He's an extremely savvy dude, and he knows it.

Good luck on Monday SC.

jomoco
 
You have first hand observation of the tree SC and posted some excellent pics.

I also think you'll do the right thing by your client, congrats on a balanced approach and exploring the alternatives to put to the client.
 
Thank you guys. It's nice to have multiple trained eyes with a variety of experience. I'll repost with the clients decision.
 
Lol. Even the lawn jockey is hoping you'll take that thing down before it falls. Honestly, it isn't if that one should come down, it's when?

You are considering rigging sickly weak branches in a tree you yourself describe on the web as "sickly" and acknowledge existing "root damage" On a property intended for renters? Keep your insurance premiums up to date... I mean, if your assuming that liability, CYA.

And my final inappropriate thought... Never surprises me anymore. If your back is sore, the Chiropractor just wants to manipulate you back into shape. The physical therapist wants to "train" you back into shape. The surgeon wants to cut, the herbalist want you to, well whatever the hell it is they want... You get the idea. The point (I'm not making very well) is that: You should explain that in you have at least two options.

1) in keeping with best practices of serving the customer, he should consider removal.

2) in keeping with best practices of an arborist, you have a plan for keeping the tree... As long as possible.

Your customer deserves a clear distinction.
 
It's a matter of risk. Risk being a function of probability and consequence.

The arborist's job is define those risks and develop a plan to either eliminate the risk or reduce it to an acceptable level. The client is the decision maker, not the arborist.

The role of the arborist is to define the probability of failure short term and long term. Whether it be whole tree failure or part failure (large limb). Then the arborist should define what the consequence of that failure is, ie targets.

Then develop a plan to mitigate or eliminate the risk. This can be pruning, cabling etc. Removal would be elimination of the risk.

The client is the decision maker, as he has to be comfortable with the level of risk.

An arborist is going to have his own perspective, but needs to be objective:

From the ISA Certified Arborist Code of Ethics
Deliver safe and competent services with objective and
independent professional judgment in decision-making


From the Board Certified Master Arborist Code of Ethics
2. Responsibility and commitment to deliver safe and competent services in a timely manner.
3. Responsibility and commitment to exercise unprejudiced and unbiased judgment.
4. Responsibility and commitment to maintain and satisfy the scope or objectives of a
project, unless otherwise directed by the client or customer.

From the ASCA - Registered Consulting Arborist Standard of Care
B. Independent'and Objective'Character'of'the'Results'of'Arboricultural'
Consulting'Assignments.!The!results!of!members’!Arboricultural!Consulting!
assignments!should!always!be!objective,!that!is,!based!upon!what!the!member!
perceives!to!be!relevant!facts!and!reasonable!assumptions,!and! independent!of!
the!desires,!needs!or!wishes!of!the!client!or!employer!and!of!the!interests!of!the!
member.
C. Methodology.!Members!shall!base!conclusions,!opinions!and!recommendations!
on!adequate!and!appropriate!methodology!(analyses,!investigations,!tests!and!
other!procedures).
D.Adequate'Data.!Members!shall!base!conclusions,!opinions!and!recommendations!
on!adequate!data!unless!such!data!are!not!available!or!cannot!reasonably!be!
gathered!or!made!available!in!the!context!of!the!assignment,!in!which!case!
members!shall!disclose!limitations!on!the!adequacy!of!data!and!any!resulting!
limitations!on!the!accuracy!or!reliability!of!conclusions,!opinions!or!
recommendations.
E. Verifiable'Q'Justifiable'Results.!Results!of!assignments!should!generally!be!
verifiable!by!other!professionals!using!similar!methodology.!Because!5
professionals!can!reach!differing!results,!members!shall!be!prepared!to!explain!
and!justify!their!results!in!the!face!of!divergent!opinion.

As to the comment about there being lots of trees in the neighbourhood. This tree is owned by the individual homeowner, and not managed as part of the overall city tree landscape. The presence or absence of trees in surrounding areas is irrelevant to this discussion.
 
Thought we'd finished, but...........

The presence of trees in the area indicates to me that -

1..........One less won't leave the place looking like the Nullabor Plain

2..........The likelyhood of growing a healthy well sited tree in the short
term to replace the pos is extremely high.

Maybe that's being to practical and my "safety" penchant is coming out to strong.
 
BC thanks for the post and the quotes; I'm glad to see the RCA ethics are a natural evolution from the ASCA ethics I first saw at the '96 academy. I agree with it all except "Removal would be elimination of the risk." only applies to that one tree. REMOVAL INCREASES THE RISK FROM ADJACENT TREES each and every time. Never been to the Nullabor Plain, but with trees there is safety in numbers, stability in groves. 'Replacements' sometimes grow well, sometimes not, but always take decades, if ever, to replace benefits.
The tree cutters here who preach 'safety first' might want to keep this in mind before they call for Basil Kutz the next time they see a hole or a mushroom or a seam (good catch sac). There may be a 'pos' on the property, but it is not the tree.
 

Attachments

  • AA EAC 1410.pdf
    1.2 MB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullarbor_Plain

"The Nullarbor Plain (/ˈnʌləbɔr/nul-ə-bor; Latin: nullus, "no", and arbor, "tree") is part of the area of flat, almost treeless, arid or semi-arid country of southern Australia, located on theGreat Australian Bight coast with the Great Victoria Desert to its north. It is the world's largest single exposure of limestonebedrock, and occupies an area of about 200,000 square kilometres (77,000 sq mi).[1] At its widest point, it stretches about 1,100 kilometres (684 mi) from east to west across the border between South Australia and Western Australia."

Basil KUTZ must have visited the Nullabor Plain :D
 
O, Null Arbor, No Trees, got it. That's one part of oz I'll skip seeing next year.

Yes Basil's been busy, heroically making all those 'defects' disappear, along with the assets...
 
BC thanks for the post and the quotes; I'm glad to see the RCA ethics are a natural evolution from the ASCA ethics I first saw at the '96 academy. I agree with it all except "Removal would be elimination of the risk." only applies to that one tree. REMOVAL INCREASES THE RISK FROM ADJACENT TREES each and every time. Never been to the Nullabor Plain, but with trees there is safety in numbers, stability in groves. 'Replacements' sometimes grow well, sometimes not, but always take decades, if ever, to replace benefits.
The tree cutters here who preach 'safety first' might want to keep this in mind before they call for Basil Kutz the next time they see a hole or a mushroom or a seam (good catch sac). There may be a 'pos' on the property, but it is not the tree.

You're confusing the pos that blythly ignores every PhD plant pathologist that recommends removing trees with Ganoderma and Armillaria infestations around high value targets, with those of us who don't.

Do you have a PhD in plant pathology oh wise one? Or does your BCMA trump those safety first clowns as well?

Strut your stuff Guy, Peter'll be so impressed.....

jomoco
 
Jon, please put PG back in left field ok?
As part of a graduate project 13 years ago I wrote this review. This PhDude Schwarze knows the topic better than all of your extension profs put together.:
FUNGAL STRATEGIES OF WOOD DECAY IN TREES
In 1878, in Germany, as I learned in Forestry 101, the modern science of tree care was born with the publication of Robert Hartig’s text on tree disease. This landmark book described the parasitic mode of life of Armillaria on Scots pine and documented the breakdown of cell walls by Phellinus pini. In 1863, Schacht had described the invasion of cell walls by fungal hyphae. Lacking the tools necessary for a closer analysis, but building on Schacht’s work, Hartig postulated that enzymes secreted by fungal hyphae dissolved lignin and caused secondary cell walls to collapse. As a result, wood would become worthless, and trees would fall down.

In 2000, in Germany, the science of tree care took a great leap forward. Building on the work of Hartig, Shigo and many others, Francis W.F.M.R. Schwarze, Julia Engels and Claus Mattheck published Fungal Strategies of Wood Decay in Trees. Now available worldwide, and made readily accessible to English speakers thanks to the superlative translation work of William Linnard, this book shows the reader an entirely new way of looking at decay in trees. By understanding fungus-tree interaction more completely, the tree manager can make decisions about how to handle infected trees with more certainty.

More certainty is certainly needed today. Many authorities tell tree managers that infections by Armillaria, Ganoderma, Inonotus and other fungi are considered sufficient cause for immediate removal of the tree for fear of failure. However, based on over ten years of research, Schwarze tells us “…the mere occurrence of a fungus fruit body on a tree does not indicate the extent of the decay…Degradation processes, host differences and environmental conditions are too diverse…decays often affect only a small amount of wood in the tree, so that stability and safety are not impaired.”

The book begins with a review of wood anatomy, focusing on the layered structure of the cell wall. Readers of Mattheck’s earlier work will recognize the hedgehog demonstrating the mechanical stresses within the tree. By listening to this “body language” spoken inside the tree, the diagnostician may “hear” the decay spread--and sometimes stop. With magnification up to 1000x, the reader is able to see clearly the action of the fungus in the cells, and the reaction of the trees to the attack.

Fungal pathology is reviewed next; the brown, white and soft rots. Much advanced information on soft rots, which were first described by Schacht in 1863, is presented. For instance, research by Schwarze et al prove what Sinclair, Lyon and Johnson saw indications of in 1987—that Hypoxylon deustum (a.k.a. Ustulina deusta) causes a soft rot in the sapwood of various trees. This is just one example of a pathogen shifting strategies, from saprophyte to parasite, or from enzyme-secreting to hyphae-growing that the authors note, especially on moisture-stressed trees.

Chapter Three, the heart of the book, is devoted to Fungus-Host Combinations. For a diagnostician of limited understanding, such as the reviewer, the illustrations here tell the tale of fungal pathology better than a thousand words. First, electron micrographs take the eye into intercellular and intracellular space, where the chemical battles take place. Then, three-dimensional anatomic drawings paint a distinct picture of the disease and the defense. Finally photographs, of standing trees and cross-sections, show what we all see in real life when a rotting tree is cut down and cut up.

By pulling the eye and the mind from the inside of the tree to the outside and back again, the book allows the reader to exhaustively examine what takes place when fungus and tree combine. Still, as Schwarze says, “it requires an effort to understand these…’trials of strength’…the only sensible approach to predicting the future expansion of a decay…” Or termination of a decay process; for he and others have observed, “many trees, old and young, in which a decay has been successfully compartmentalized”. The authors note why “stress treatment” fertilization of struggling trees often backfires—decay fungi thrive on excess nitrogen.

Chapter 4 begins with the compartmentalization model, and verifies that theory with microscopic assessment. Since most fungi which endanger trees’ stability work from the inside out, the ways that trees resist that outward spread are reviewed at some length. Xylem rays can be the trees’ Achilles Heels, the pathogens’ paths of least resistance. Similarly, xylem cracks produced by rapid drying after removal of a branch are “motorways” for infection, so the authors suggest that “the use of wound sealants could be quite successful against wound parasites. However there is still a great need for research here.” When large branches must be removed, experimenting with sealants seems preferable to opening the heartwood to decay. For information about the NEWTS—Network of Experimental Wound Treating and Sealing—contact the author.

Throughout the book, we are reminded that the tree’s vitality and its energy reserves are the most important factors in making a prognosis. Since fungal spores are present throughout the air, soil and water that surrounds the tree, it is the arborist’s first and constant task to make trees stronger and more resistant to any attack. If fungus gets a foothold in a tree, following the discoveries within Fungal Strategies of Wood Decay in Trees can lead to a program to resist decay and retain and increase tree value.

In 2000, in Germany, the science of tree care took a great leap forward. Building on the work of Hartig, Shigo and many others, Francis W.F.M.R. Schwarze, Julia Engels and Claus Mattheck published Fungal Strategies of Wood Decay in Trees. Now available worldwide, and made readily accessible to English speakers thanks to the superlative translation work of William Linnard, this book shows the reader an entirely new way of looking at decay in trees. By understanding fungus-tree interaction more completely, the tree manager can make decisions about how to handle infected trees with more certainty.

More certainty is certainly needed today. Many authorities tell tree managers that infections by Armillaria, Ganoderma, Inonotus and other fungi are considered sufficient cause for immediate removal of the tree for fear of failure. However, based on over ten years of research, Schwarze tells us “…the mere occurrence of a fungus fruit body on a tree does not indicate the extent of the decay…Degradation processes, host differences and environmental conditions are too diverse…decays often affect only a small amount of wood in the tree, so that stability and safety are not impaired.”…

Chapter Three, the heart of the book, is devoted to Fungus-Host Combinations. For a diagnostician of limited understanding, such as the reviewer, the illustrations here tell the tale of fungal pathology better than a thousand words. First, electron micrographs take the eye into intercellular and intracellular space, where the chemical battles take place. Then, three-dimensional anatomic drawings paint a distinct picture of the disease and the defense. Finally photographs, of standing trees and cross-sections, show what we all see in real life when a rotting tree is cut down and cut up.

By pulling the eye and the mind from the inside of the tree to the outside and back again, the book allows the reader to exhaustively examine what takes place when fungus and tree combine. Still, as Schwarze says, “it requires an effort to understand these…’trials of strength’…the only sensible approach to predicting the future expansion of a decay…” Or termination of a decay process; for he and others have observed, “many trees, old and young, in which a decay has been successfully compartmentalized”. …

Throughout the book, we are reminded that the tree’s vitality and its energy reserves are the most important factors in making a prognosis. Since fungal spores are present throughout the air, soil and water that surrounds the tree, it is the arborist’s first and constant task to make trees stronger and more resistant to any attack. If fungus gets a foothold in a tree, following the discoveries within Fungal Strategies of Wood Decay in Trees can lead to a program to resist decay and retain and increase tree value.
 
Back
Top