Tapered Hinge Revisited

[chris_girard]

I just received my new Forest Applications Newsletter by GOL instructor Tim Ard and he had an article on why not to use the tapered hinge in your felling plan.

Before I quote what he said I just wanted to let you guys know that my background is in logging and tree climbing. I have gone through my state logger certification for directional felling and all the instructors who are seasoned loggers no longer teach or use the tapered hinge for side leaning trees. Instead they are all using and teaching Tim Ard's method of offsetting your "gunning" sight to compensate for the amount of side lean.

The following is quoted from the article. "Some operators try to steer the tree by holding the hinge or leaving the hinge a bit thicker on the tension side of the stump and thinner on the compression side. Some do this as the tree is falling. This is not a recommended technique. There have been many injuries and deaths related to staying too close to the stump of the tree when it's falling."

"There is an important issue to remember when using a tapered hinge technique. Unless you do remove a portion of the end of the hinge with the taper, and even sometimes with that, if the hinge material supports the weight of the tree and stays attached during the fall, a tapered hinge still steers to the notched position. Steering to the notch direction is really what your desiring to do isn't it? So why taper the hinge? There is really not an explainable reason. It's a guess as to how much wood material to add or subtract to taper the hinge."

"A nice straight hinge is a great deal more predictable, if aimed correctly, than guessing how much to taper and or standing right besides a falling tree."

How many of you guys have used the offset "gunning" technique and what do you think?

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i've tried it, and i like more of the art of the machine working correctly and delivering correctly into the square of the face; rather than a failure point in between lean pull and gunned face.

But, the whole balance thing across the axis with tapered hinge countering lean is a physics/philosophy (proper Ph)thing for me personally.

Or, something like that,
:alien:

 

[chris_girard]

Spyder I do understand what you're getting at. It depends on which method you are more comfortable with too.

I also want to tell you that your web site is great! Keep up the great work.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by chris_girard
I also want to tell you that your web site is great! Keep up the great work.

For sure. I bet it only gets better!

 

[NeTree]

Tapered hinges do work well, when properly done. Properly, you shouldn't be making it any thinner on the compression side than you normally would with a straight hinge; but rather leaving more holding material on the compression side.

The tapered hinge is alot more predictable than the "adjusted gunn" technique.

It's all moot; if there's any question as to whether it will fall where needed, a rope should be set.

As arborists, we rarely have the luxury of working out in the timber where it's not nearly as critical for it to fall dead-on.

By the way, I've done more than my share of logging too.

Funny you bring this up though... kinda shows my point about tapered hinges being nothing new, eh?

 

[glens]

Originally posted by chris_girard [quoting an article]
"... try to steer the tree ... as the tree is falling. This is not a recommended technique. There have been many injuries and deaths related to staying too close to the stump of the tree when it's falling."

No duh.&nbsp; Trying to steer a tree like that <i>while it's falling</i> is what they're really arguing against, and I agree with disrecommending <i>that</i> practice.&nbsp; I don't think it's proper to be bad-mouthing a well-(pre-)formed tapered hinge; especially in this manner.

"... if the hinge material supports the weight of the tree and stays attached during the fall, a tapered hinge still steers to the notched position."

No duh.&nbsp; Who ever said the tree shouldn't go to the notched direction with a tapered hinge and, more importantly, who's suggesting to try otherwise?&nbsp; Another straw-man aspect of the argument.

"Steering to the notch direction is really what your desiring to do isn't it? So why taper the hinge? There is really not an explainable reason."

They didn't ask me!&nbsp; The answer to the first question is "yes" and the answer to the second is "so the fall to the gun will assuredly happen".

"It's a guess as to how much wood material to add or subtract to taper the hinge."

No duh.&nbsp; Who said it wasn't?

"A nice straight hinge is a great deal more predictable, if aimed correctly, than guessing how much to taper and or standing right besides a falling tree."

So instead of guessing how much extra material to leave in the tension side of the hinge they're advocating guessing how far away from the gun the straight-hinged fell will fall?&nbsp; Excuse me, but I'd much rather guess a little too much hinge material than guess how much English to put on a gun!&nbsp; I prefer having my trees fall to the gun, not away from it.&nbsp; Any time a tree falls off the gun I consider it an error.

I hear them advocating guessing how much error to introduce to the gun and can't hardly believe my ears.&nbsp; I can only hope what's been reported is the result of bad editing on the part of the periodical administration.

Glen

 

[ORclimber]

Originally posted by netree

The tapered hinge is alot more predictable than the "adjusted gunn" technique.

How 'bout them apples.

 

[NeTree]

Tell ya what...


Take a stick and try to use the adjusted gunn technique to hit the stick.

Now, take someone using a tapered hinge and try to do the same.

See who wins.

Murphy4Trees has alot of pics that'll predict the winner in that contest.

 

[murphy4trees]

I can only hope what's been reported is the result of bad editing on the part of the periodical administration.

NOPE... aparently that article got the conversation heated up in other circles as well....
The editors at TCI said Tim wrote an letter something to the effect that what I wrote was dangerous....
Then Ken Palmer said something to me at TCi about these German scientists, fiberologists or something, swearing that the tapered hinge makes no difference.... Actually we had a good conversation on the subject and I told him how my experiences in the field and studying wood bow making, had formed my thoughts as they evolved from Dent and Spidy. And Ken Palmer did rightly point out that the mulberry pictures were actually bad hinges... they didn't hold... just ripped out... It was a mistake to use them... So I heard him and I think he heard me.

I AM glad to see so much discussion of the matter.... Maybe NE and Wiley could email Ard about how they've been using the tapered hinge since they were three ..... he might come around then....

Actualkly the best thing is for everyone to try it in the field themselves... I think the place where it is most easily observed as a superior method is when swinging light horizontal limbs sideways.....

As Butch said "Let's get it on"

 

[ORclimber]

Originally posted by chris_girard

"A nice straight hinge is a great deal more predictable, if aimed correctly, than guessing how much to taper and or standing right besides a falling tree."

How many of you guys have used the offset "gunning" technique and what do you think?

Uh... since using a tapered hinge to precision while strapped into a spar ain't nothing but a thang. Guiding a tree over using a tapered hinge with both feet on the ground is a walk in the park.

 

[NeTree]

Originally posted by murphy4trees
Maybe NE and Wiley could email Ard about how they've been using the tapered hinge since they were three ..... he might come around then....

Age 10, actually.

Hey, of course it's dangerous; otherwise, they wouldn't call in the pros, would they? LOL

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i'm sure Tim Ard has had good exposure to a tapered hinge as i beleive he hangs with Mike Oxman for one thing.

Oxman seemed hip to the tapered hinge; but i think if i understood right wanted to make it on an incline to get the tree to build force and go suddenly(?).

Turn the hinges on the side in the tree to test them at not their most massive pulls, but most leveraged for size, as mah'man OR notes.. Take that experience back to the ground and fold in....

 

[murphy4trees]

I actually got a call from OXman at TCI... he said it was a rare article in that it actually imparted something of value to the working arborist...

I really don;t understand how a person of Ard's experience could consider the adjusted gun superior to the tapered hinge

 

[NeTree]

Neither can I; but I do know this: Just because those guys are famous, doesn't mean they're the best- they just get better publicity.

It defies common sense, I tell ya.

I'll take my chances on getting the tree spot-on every time with my pull-ropes and various hinges before I'll give my insurance company a heart attack with a guesswork-gunn.

It's like wiping before you crap... it just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Stumper]

We get used to what has worked for us-even if it isn't the easiest or best technique to impart to others. Keeping an open mind is wise but most of us have watched someone implement a technique that is new to us and then turned around and repeated our old techniques because we are familiar and comfortable with them.

 

[NeTree]

True.

But repetition breeds familiarity. There's a first time for everything, isn't there?

I remember struggling to tie my first bowline, somewhere around age 6 or 7. I just smile and laugh when guys who aren't good at know tying see me do it comment on it while I'm chatting with them and not even looking at what my hands are doing- especially when I do it one-handed.

 

[rumination]

Do I understand the offset gun technique to mean that you would aim your notch further away from the lean than you actually want the tree to fall?

 

[NeTree]

Basically, yes. You "adjust" your gun further than your intended landing zone, knowing the hinge won't really carry it there, in an estimated guess as to when the hinge will tear off early and land the tree where you REALLY want it... more or less.

Fine out in the backwoods, but that's an awful lot of guesswork around someone's house.

Remember, right EVERY time!


Let's use Murphy's other thread as an example:

Forget for now whether it really hit where he was aiming for, let's just pretend he really was 40" off on a 70' stick.

Could you achieve that kind of accuracy with the adjusted gun? Not f-ing likely, but even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then.

Realistically, you could get within 8 or 9 feet. In the woods, that's an inconvenience. In the residential areas we work in, that's you buying someone a new {insert expensive immovable object here}.

 

[rumination]

ummm...yeah, I think I'll stick with the tapered hinge. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[rborist1]

:Eye: