rumination
ArboristSite Guru
And why wouldn't I? 
Tapered Hinge Revisited
- Thread starter chris_girard
- Start date
Help Support Arborist Forum:
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
Excellent post, Leon!
Please ignore those posts signed with my name, but made by someone else. I was hoping they would have been deleted by now. It's better to talk to folks, rather than have them talk about me. So, here goes.
Regarding the tapered hinge, I am a believer, yet the hinge is a 3-D affair. I prefer an open face, either conventional or Humboldt style, gunned directly at the target.
The higher the backcut, the taller & stronger the hinge, because it contains more holding wood. Dent addresses this variable height adjustment of the backcut, and it was posted on the ????????.COM thread, but the TCI magazine article did not. In the forest, raising or lowering the backcut by tilting the saw is as important as the thickness of the taper.
The integral combination of tilted backcut & tapered hinge can be applied in myriad ways to the art of falling trees. The goal is to steer the direction of the falling tree towards a clear spot on the ground, regardless of which way it is leaning.
By raising the kerf almost to the top of the face on the thick side of the taper, holding time is prolonged. This tilt is extended down almost to the floor of the face on the opposite side, towards the lean, to remove wood by making the hinge shorter. This reduces holding power on the side where none is needed, since the tree is already leaning that direction.
This process allows the faller to get the tree to go in a larger angle of deflection away from where it wants to go. One of Tree Spyders' wonderful diagrams would go a long way to spread the word about this method of magical anti-gravity control.
Arboreally Yours,
www.treedr.net
Ox (really!)
Regarding the tapered hinge, I am a believer, yet the hinge is a 3-D affair. I prefer an open face, either conventional or Humboldt style, gunned directly at the target.
The higher the backcut, the taller & stronger the hinge, because it contains more holding wood. Dent addresses this variable height adjustment of the backcut, and it was posted on the ????????.COM thread, but the TCI magazine article did not. In the forest, raising or lowering the backcut by tilting the saw is as important as the thickness of the taper.
The integral combination of tilted backcut & tapered hinge can be applied in myriad ways to the art of falling trees. The goal is to steer the direction of the falling tree towards a clear spot on the ground, regardless of which way it is leaning.
By raising the kerf almost to the top of the face on the thick side of the taper, holding time is prolonged. This tilt is extended down almost to the floor of the face on the opposite side, towards the lean, to remove wood by making the hinge shorter. This reduces holding power on the side where none is needed, since the tree is already leaning that direction.
This process allows the faller to get the tree to go in a larger angle of deflection away from where it wants to go. One of Tree Spyders' wonderful diagrams would go a long way to spread the word about this method of magical anti-gravity control.
Arboreally Yours,
www.treedr.net
Ox (really!)
Toddppm
Addicted to ArboristSite
When using the tapered hinge with a pull line, do you always pull in-line with the notch also?
I've done it with an exagerated pull , farther to the side than needed knowing it will break earlier. Definately not exact but it works or am I just lucky?
I've done it with an exagerated pull , farther to the side than needed knowing it will break earlier. Definately not exact but it works or am I just lucky?
NeTree
Addicted to ArboristSite
oxman, slanted backcuts are for homeowners and other amateurs.
Real pros don't use them, for very specific reasons:
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16149&perpage=40&pagenumber=1
Real pros don't use them, for very specific reasons:
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16149&perpage=40&pagenumber=1
Gypo Logger
Timber Baron
When dealing with larger trees that weigh over 4 tons lets say, I don't think the tree pays much heed with regards to altering it's natural lay, even if we try to influence it with tapered hinges etc.
Just as chain is only as strong as it's weekest link, holdingwood creates little directional influence once the tree is commited to it's intended direction of fall if ENOUGH holdingwood is removed and the undercut was well placed.
Much like driving a tank thru a front door, the doorhinges will have little or no influence over how the doors are crashed. How's that for an analogy?
I think 95% of the problems that wouldbe fallers have, is that they don't stay with the tree long enough as it begins it's fall and that their saws are not sharp or powerful enough except for the smaller trees. Through fear and inexperience they tend to cut and run, only to look back on a tree that hasn't even begun to make an approach, let alone a final decent.
John
Just as chain is only as strong as it's weekest link, holdingwood creates little directional influence once the tree is commited to it's intended direction of fall if ENOUGH holdingwood is removed and the undercut was well placed.
Much like driving a tank thru a front door, the doorhinges will have little or no influence over how the doors are crashed. How's that for an analogy?
I think 95% of the problems that wouldbe fallers have, is that they don't stay with the tree long enough as it begins it's fall and that their saws are not sharp or powerful enough except for the smaller trees. Through fear and inexperience they tend to cut and run, only to look back on a tree that hasn't even begun to make an approach, let alone a final decent.
John
i think a conventional etc. hinge tries to compensate for sidelean; a tapered hinge just makes it easier for it to do so.
The sidelean will stretch the opposite fiber in hinge harder, making that fiber pull harder in response; in a L controls the R cross formation; becuase the leveraged distance of control is greater to the cross axis of the lean. And the lean is the power behind the whole motion.
When the faces close, the compression in face unloads it's oppositer (the hinge), and so corrective hinge pull response stops, further force and tear off happens. But, even in this stage (faces closing) there is adjsutment to sidelean, by the heavier side hitting harder, so pushing to center harder.
i think a heavier tree, properly faced, has more weight/more Nature force, so is more apt to self correct. As, a larger aquarium has more water, so more Nature; and is more self correcting/balancing.
Thee Oxman, welcome back; i've emailed ya to see if we are on same page; or just what you see here.
Todd, i have a diagram for that here somewhere... In short, i think if the hinge is sound, you pull to target, and leverage your action through the hinge multiplier. Pulling to offset lean, takes that force off hinge, so hinge doesn't help. i look at it as a linear, direct effort against the lean, or an arched path of your effort, through the hinge, then to the lean illustratively; but really the higne has it's own leverage multiplier beyond the ratio of distances that ya speak of in leveraged arc (that ol'Oxman might be trying to increase?)
Dr. Erik.............what about the lessons learned and taken 'in tree' to address hinge help at the most leveraged angle of gravity pull against target-horizontal? i ain't so sure, you can find such correction naturally compensating at that angle; then these 'angles' help as ya take every bit ya can (as i'm sure ya know)
Do they have half aliens?
:alien:
The sidelean will stretch the opposite fiber in hinge harder, making that fiber pull harder in response; in a L controls the R cross formation; becuase the leveraged distance of control is greater to the cross axis of the lean. And the lean is the power behind the whole motion.
When the faces close, the compression in face unloads it's oppositer (the hinge), and so corrective hinge pull response stops, further force and tear off happens. But, even in this stage (faces closing) there is adjsutment to sidelean, by the heavier side hitting harder, so pushing to center harder.
i think a heavier tree, properly faced, has more weight/more Nature force, so is more apt to self correct. As, a larger aquarium has more water, so more Nature; and is more self correcting/balancing.
Thee Oxman, welcome back; i've emailed ya to see if we are on same page; or just what you see here.
Todd, i have a diagram for that here somewhere... In short, i think if the hinge is sound, you pull to target, and leverage your action through the hinge multiplier. Pulling to offset lean, takes that force off hinge, so hinge doesn't help. i look at it as a linear, direct effort against the lean, or an arched path of your effort, through the hinge, then to the lean illustratively; but really the higne has it's own leverage multiplier beyond the ratio of distances that ya speak of in leveraged arc (that ol'Oxman might be trying to increase?)
Dr. Erik.............what about the lessons learned and taken 'in tree' to address hinge help at the most leveraged angle of gravity pull against target-horizontal? i ain't so sure, you can find such correction naturally compensating at that angle; then these 'angles' help as ya take every bit ya can (as i'm sure ya know)
Do they have half aliens?
:alien:
Which ones?
Usually steal from some source; guess back to the drawing bored!
Usually steal from some source; guess back to the drawing bored!
Last edited:
Gypo Logger
Timber Baron
In the previous video, if it didn't take to long to download, you will note that only 6 seconds transpired from the time I withdrew my saw from the tree and the time that the limb hit the stump, but in actual time 6 seconds is a long time and you can escape at least 50 feet away with a saw and 75 without.
It's a given that debris will fly, so we must be prepared, but most problems arise from trying to commit a tree with too much holding wood and to slow of a saw.
John
It's a given that debris will fly, so we must be prepared, but most problems arise from trying to commit a tree with too much holding wood and to slow of a saw.
John
Hi Ken, et al,
Thanks for your thoughtful messages. I was glad that you put so much effort into the drawings and commentary on the boards and your website. I must confess that I switch into skim mode when reading run-on sentences and 100 word paragraphs. I don't have very good powers of concentration. Sorry if I did not comprehend the complex ideas you so generously took the time to prepare.
Please don't think I am criticizing. The attacks made by some on the boards are rather rude, when we are actually just trying to explain ourselves, which we have a right to do.
I wish I could draw a view of one of these cuts. This is a drawing by an Aussie on Arboristsite, I think. http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=187889 It shows the floor of the face tilted, either on purpose, or as a result of drawing skills. It does get the idea across, so thanks for posting, Mate. Imagine the tree in this example is leaning to the left. Lets disregard the boring steps in this case. (Please disregard my boring language, also.)
The effect of tilting the face here is the same as tilting the backcut in my description. The net result of each face is more holding wood below the backcut. The hinge is taller (stronger) on the holding side, and shorter (weaker) on the compression side. It takes almost zero effort or time to put the saw into this modified kerf. Much less work than a wedge or a tagline or bored tunnel.
To make a comparison, think of the type of keylock carabiner with the cutout that latches over a wide part of the gate. An example is the Petzl Spirit, which I believe is a licensed feature. I ran into biner mfr. Denny Moorhouse at a TCI Expo a few years ago. His company is named ISC (International Safety Corporation). He also founded and is part owner of DMM (Denny Moorhouse Mountaineering), in Wales.
Denny designed a biner that is a mirror image of the original keylock style biner. The shape of the cutout in the nose of the ISA biner is the same as the shape of the gate in the keylock biner. This allows ISC to market a version of patented technology that accomplishes a strong structure, but in relief.
This relief is what is accomplished by tilting the facecut instead of the backcut. It's the same thing, actually. Wow, that was a long explanation for using that drawing as an example! That's ok, though.
Dug that falling video, bigtime!
Thanks for your thoughtful messages. I was glad that you put so much effort into the drawings and commentary on the boards and your website. I must confess that I switch into skim mode when reading run-on sentences and 100 word paragraphs. I don't have very good powers of concentration. Sorry if I did not comprehend the complex ideas you so generously took the time to prepare.
Please don't think I am criticizing. The attacks made by some on the boards are rather rude, when we are actually just trying to explain ourselves, which we have a right to do.
I wish I could draw a view of one of these cuts. This is a drawing by an Aussie on Arboristsite, I think. http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=187889 It shows the floor of the face tilted, either on purpose, or as a result of drawing skills. It does get the idea across, so thanks for posting, Mate. Imagine the tree in this example is leaning to the left. Lets disregard the boring steps in this case. (Please disregard my boring language, also.)
The effect of tilting the face here is the same as tilting the backcut in my description. The net result of each face is more holding wood below the backcut. The hinge is taller (stronger) on the holding side, and shorter (weaker) on the compression side. It takes almost zero effort or time to put the saw into this modified kerf. Much less work than a wedge or a tagline or bored tunnel.
To make a comparison, think of the type of keylock carabiner with the cutout that latches over a wide part of the gate. An example is the Petzl Spirit, which I believe is a licensed feature. I ran into biner mfr. Denny Moorhouse at a TCI Expo a few years ago. His company is named ISC (International Safety Corporation). He also founded and is part owner of DMM (Denny Moorhouse Mountaineering), in Wales.
Denny designed a biner that is a mirror image of the original keylock style biner. The shape of the cutout in the nose of the ISA biner is the same as the shape of the gate in the keylock biner. This allows ISC to market a version of patented technology that accomplishes a strong structure, but in relief.
This relief is what is accomplished by tilting the facecut instead of the backcut. It's the same thing, actually. Wow, that was a long explanation for using that drawing as an example! That's ok, though.
Dug that falling video, bigtime!
NeTree
Addicted to ArboristSite
Right... TOO much holding wood, meaning most of the force you're applying is simply going into bending the hinge. I rarely make a hinge over an inch; it's just not required. Too thick, and you're simply pounding wedges for nought.
Gypo Logger
Timber Baron
Hi Erik, I think we are getting down to the nitty gritty of the mechanics of falling and all the variables that will accomplish the same end result.
To sum it up, I think the hingewood does the initial talking in conjuction with a well placed undercut, but within seconds gravity does the talking and exerts far more force than anything else.
This is why a thinner hinge is best as it will compensate for other errors, such as unintentional dutchmen or cuts that don't meet. Falling is a race against gravity, so a very fast saw will eleviate most errors as will an understanding of the relative strength of the fibre of various species. Softwoods are much more forgiving in some ways due to their relative lightness.
Thick hinges create barberchairs, especially when combined with cuts that don't meet.
At some point I think we need to define what the meaning is of "cuts that don't meet".
A super fast saw is our best defence.
John
To sum it up, I think the hingewood does the initial talking in conjuction with a well placed undercut, but within seconds gravity does the talking and exerts far more force than anything else.
This is why a thinner hinge is best as it will compensate for other errors, such as unintentional dutchmen or cuts that don't meet. Falling is a race against gravity, so a very fast saw will eleviate most errors as will an understanding of the relative strength of the fibre of various species. Softwoods are much more forgiving in some ways due to their relative lightness.
Thick hinges create barberchairs, especially when combined with cuts that don't meet.
At some point I think we need to define what the meaning is of "cuts that don't meet".
A super fast saw is our best defence.
John
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
I just got back from a long wekend in Ca. visiting family. I am glad to see that Michael Oxman has joined the conversation and have his input. He's been cutting trees for around 35 years and rubs elbows with a bunch of west coast logger types... So I respect his opinion and feedback.
It meant a lot to me when he told me by phone that he was surprised by the tapered hinge article in TCI mag, as it has become extrememly rare for these magazine articles to contain much substance with practical application and value.
Thanks Michael..
So here is the latest info on the tapered hinge controvery. I just got an email from one of the editors at TCI..
See my response and his mail below:
Don,
I AM glad to see the conversation continuing on the "tapred hinge controversy".
Apparently the article has stirred up quite a bit of debate on the subject. I understand that Tim Ard published a piece in his newsletter to specifiaclly discourage the use of the tapered hinge and herald the benefits of the adjusted gun technique...
Also I had a brief conversation with Ken Palmer of Arbormaster Trainings where he questioned the effectiveness of the tapered hinge and talked about some German scientists he is working with.
So I have designed some experiments to show the relative strength of tension and compression woods which I intend to complete in September.
I too was asked about the center plunge on the cover pic, in Pittsburg, and would love an opportunity to reply with additional photos of the tree, hinge, fall etc....
I was planning on writing my next article on climbing techniques to avoid any additional controversy, yet welcome the opportunity to take this conversation to the next level.
You wrote "Lee was curious why you stopped the hinge as short as half the width of the tree. Again, briefly, could you explain that for him?" What exactly is that question referring to? I think that may be refering to the 6" maple lead, in one of the photos in the body of the article.
Let's talk by phone soon.I just got back from a long weekend retreat in California, so I'll take a couple of days to catch up on work. In the mean time I'll put some ideas on paper.
I think the controversy sirred up by the original article is a great opportunity for our industry. I appreciate TCI as the best forum for this conversation. And I have 100% confidence in the effectiveness of the tapered hinge as I use it in the field regularly.
thank you for your service,
Daniel Murphy
In a message dated 8/25/2004 4:07:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
Dan,
Our staff arborist, Lee Gilman, would like you to answer two questions re: your tapered hinge story.
1. Several people at the ISA show apparently asked him to explain the saw-through on the cover photo. I know you and I had talked about it, but can you provide me a brief explanation of why you used that? I may want to print it as Lee thinks it needs to be explained.
2. Also, Lee was curious why you stopped the hinge as short as half the width of the tree. Again, briefly, could you explain that for him?
ps: I just rec'd the note from Michael Oxman.
Thanks,
Don Staruk
Managing editor
Tree Care Industry magazine
[email protected]
Ph: 603-314-5380
Fax: 603-314-5386
Tree Care Industry Association
"The Voice of the Tree Care Industry"
www.treecareindustry.org
3 Perimeter Rd, Unit 1
Manchester, NH 03103
It meant a lot to me when he told me by phone that he was surprised by the tapered hinge article in TCI mag, as it has become extrememly rare for these magazine articles to contain much substance with practical application and value.
Thanks Michael..
So here is the latest info on the tapered hinge controvery. I just got an email from one of the editors at TCI..
See my response and his mail below:
Don,
I AM glad to see the conversation continuing on the "tapred hinge controversy".
Apparently the article has stirred up quite a bit of debate on the subject. I understand that Tim Ard published a piece in his newsletter to specifiaclly discourage the use of the tapered hinge and herald the benefits of the adjusted gun technique...
Also I had a brief conversation with Ken Palmer of Arbormaster Trainings where he questioned the effectiveness of the tapered hinge and talked about some German scientists he is working with.
So I have designed some experiments to show the relative strength of tension and compression woods which I intend to complete in September.
I too was asked about the center plunge on the cover pic, in Pittsburg, and would love an opportunity to reply with additional photos of the tree, hinge, fall etc....
I was planning on writing my next article on climbing techniques to avoid any additional controversy, yet welcome the opportunity to take this conversation to the next level.
You wrote "Lee was curious why you stopped the hinge as short as half the width of the tree. Again, briefly, could you explain that for him?" What exactly is that question referring to? I think that may be refering to the 6" maple lead, in one of the photos in the body of the article.
Let's talk by phone soon.I just got back from a long weekend retreat in California, so I'll take a couple of days to catch up on work. In the mean time I'll put some ideas on paper.
I think the controversy sirred up by the original article is a great opportunity for our industry. I appreciate TCI as the best forum for this conversation. And I have 100% confidence in the effectiveness of the tapered hinge as I use it in the field regularly.
thank you for your service,
Daniel Murphy
In a message dated 8/25/2004 4:07:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
Dan,
Our staff arborist, Lee Gilman, would like you to answer two questions re: your tapered hinge story.
1. Several people at the ISA show apparently asked him to explain the saw-through on the cover photo. I know you and I had talked about it, but can you provide me a brief explanation of why you used that? I may want to print it as Lee thinks it needs to be explained.
2. Also, Lee was curious why you stopped the hinge as short as half the width of the tree. Again, briefly, could you explain that for him?
ps: I just rec'd the note from Michael Oxman.
Thanks,
Don Staruk
Managing editor
Tree Care Industry magazine
[email protected]
Ph: 603-314-5380
Fax: 603-314-5386
Tree Care Industry Association
"The Voice of the Tree Care Industry"
www.treecareindustry.org
3 Perimeter Rd, Unit 1
Manchester, NH 03103
Similar threads
